Help with cutting through a band mix

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carpediem666
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Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by carpediem666 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:31 pm

Hi there

I have been a Mesa Dual Rectifier owner/player for many years but i have always had 1 major problem, being a rhythm guitarist i always find myself being a little lost in the mix when it comes to the band situation.

I have read many ideas on the internet about how to help cut through and have tried many things i.e boosting the mids, less gain, EQ pedal.

Well i seem to think that it still doesnt help that much.

Can anyone please give me some more ideas to try or experience that they can share?? wether its in my settings or if its my gear?

Mostly playing Rock covers so i like to use a fair whack of gain.

Thanks

My gear and settings are as follows :D


Dual Rectifier with bold selected and Tube diodes.

Channel 1:

Clean setting

Bass: 11 o'clock
Mids: 10 o'clock
Treble: 3 o'clock
Presence: 12 o'clock
Master: 12 o'clock
Gain: 3 o'clock


Channel 2:

Vintage setting

Bass: 11 o'clock
Mids: 12 o'clock
Treble: 2 o'clock
Presence: 12 o'clock
Master: 2 o'clock
Gain: 11 o'clock

Channel 3:

Modern setting

Bass: 10 o'clock
Mids: 12 o'clock
Treble: 2 o'clock
Presence: 10 o'clock
Master: 3 o'clock
Gain: 2 o'clock

I also run a Boss GE7 EQ pedal in the loop which i boost the 800K and 100K settings, is this OK?

I use LTD explorer guitars with active EMG 81 bridge and EMG 60 in the neck.

Tubescreamer for solo boosts when i need it and also a reverb and chorus in the loop as well.

Any help would be grand.

Cheers

siggy14
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by siggy14 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:30 pm

What cab are you using?

R_ADKINS80
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by R_ADKINS80 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:39 pm

yeah if you can't cut with those settings and boosting mids with an eq.....there's something wrong.
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guitarrhinoceros
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by guitarrhinoceros » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:27 pm

This isn't an uncommon issue with the Dual Rectifiers. The amp is great with the low mids, but it doesn't particularly shine with high mids. For starters, if you want the Dual to cut like a Marshall, a Vox, or any other high midrange amp, forget about it -- it won't. If you are in a band with another guitarist that is using an amp with a distinct upper midrange voicing, chances are you are going to feel like you aren't cutting through the mix.

It could also be that you are using too much bass and too much gain, in addition to too little mids. My suggestion? Raise the mids a bit (around noon), don't go crazy with the presence (some do this to overcompensate the perceived lack of brightness), and back off the bass and gain. Don't forget to crank the amp!

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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by r0nn!e » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:34 am

Hello, I had similar experience with my G. Triple Rectifier - I just couldn't get through the band - bandmate has 2001+ Dual Recto.

I my case, the trick was in the "SILICONE DIODES" setting. This setting is amazing when I play alone or perhaps it could be cool for recording but for use in the band - it is just too dark sound. I've switched to "VACUUM TUBES" and I was really amazed how easily I could cut through!

So, try VACUUM instead of SILICONE. Hope it helps...

If it doesn't help, try push the PRESENCE on 3'o'clock, BASSES completely OFF, TREBLES on 3'o'clock and MIDS about 11'o'clock.

carpediem666
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by carpediem666 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:10 am

Thank for the tips guys.

I have tried the silicon setting but for my taste its too brittle. Also when I'm at a practice environment I have to run through an orange 2x12 cab but at gigs I use my mesa rectifier 2x12 cab.

Also don't get me wrong I have tweaked my sound a lot since playing in this band before I used to have less mids and it was terrible. Couldn't hear a thing. Now its better but I find that if I turn up too loud I overpower the lead guy lol.

I was just wondering if I was doing everything right that I could do ? Also does anyone know any good eq settings for the boss ge7 ?

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Blaklynx
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by Blaklynx » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:11 am

carpediem666 wrote: I also run a Boss GE7 EQ pedal in the loop which i boost the 800K and 100K settings, is this OK?

Cheers
OK.... a little lost here.... Is it 800Hz and 100Hz?

You're boosting the wrong end if 100Hz.... maybe you should cut it as well as anything below it.

Here:
http://www.alexandermagazine.com/record ... qualeq.asp
http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm
http://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech_corn ... ibing_tone


Interesting amp analysis:
http://www.gmarts.org/index.php?go=212


Other:
http://www.digitalprosound.com/2002/03_ ... cerpt1.htm
Gotta love tubes!
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If you're interested in the chicken head knob replacement on my Roadster amp, go here:
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.ph ... 98#p476098

carpediem666
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by carpediem666 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:14 am

It's both that I'm boosting. I did read somrwhere that if you dial the bass low on the rec and then use the eq pedal to run it back in to the amp it does lower some of the muddiness that these amps seem to suffer from. I don't know if that is correct ?

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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by Heritage Softail » Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:03 am

In my experiences in a garage band playing parties and small places, not a rock star in any way....

What cuts well in a band sounds too mid focused or bright all by itself. Maybe you can have two people help you. Play a song with the full band and at full volume. Have one person back in the house and someone else tweak the tone. Probably will boost the mids and cut the bass.

I always play at home and practice with more bass. The way scooped tone sounds good alone but is not practical in a band, unless you are all chugging the same riff :lol: if you want to hear something weird, YT search Randy Rhodes guitar tracks. Listen to Flying High Again guitars only track. Sounds thin and mid screeching. In the mix it cuts well and is a legendary tone.

It's worth a shot.
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Blaklynx
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by Blaklynx » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:57 am

carpediem666 wrote:It's both that I'm boosting. I did read somrwhere that if you dial the bass low on the rec and then use the eq pedal to run it back in to the amp it does lower some of the muddiness that these amps seem to suffer from. I don't know if that is correct ?
OK. I just googled the GE7. You're boosting the 100HZ and 800HZ. Firstly, how much boost? Also, what output level on the EQ?

The settings below I'm only guessing because I don't have your gear and aren't in your playing/rehearsal space but they're worth a try.

Try this on the EQ:
-Boost 100Hz try 1~3 dB
-Cut 200hz by 5~7dB
-Boost 800Hz by 2~4dB
-Boost 1.6kHz by 2~3dB
-Boost 3.2kHz by 3~5dB
-Boost 6.4kHZ by 3~5dB

Amp:
Bass 9~10oclock
Mid 11~2oclock
Treb ~10-11oclock
Presence ~8-8.30oclock

This may sound odd on it's own and may feel odd, too. In a band it may be what's needed. Between 800Hz and 6.4kHz is what you need to play with. Adjusting these frequencies will require the amp tones controls to be adjusted. There's a balance with everything.

Another thing to consider is placing an EQ out front (and in the loop) to allow much more flexibility. They each do their own thing. Out front you can boost certain frequencies to drive the preamp harder at those frequencies and making tonal adjustments with the EQ in the loop.

This is how I balance my guitar with my amp (Rectoverb) as a starting point:
-Strike open chords (I start with E, then G, then C,then D, then A) It doesn't matter, really, as long as you cycle through them.
-LISTEN to all strings
-Pluck one string at a time as the chord is ringing to see which strings sound weak and don't stand out (You're looking for clarity and balance of all notes)
-Adjust EQ pedal/amp tone controls to balance all strings.
-Strike bar chords to check balance of tone
-If happy, mark the EQ pedal and amp settings with liquid paper (or some white marker that can be removed) as reference if ever you make any adjustments because of playing environment changes.

There'll be adjustments in a band situation but don't adjust everything at once, you'll get confused. In a band setting, bump up one EQ slider at a time, even if you bump it up at maximum level. All you're trying to determine is what that frequency is doing to your overall tone in a band setting. If it sounds too extreme, bring it down a little. Do the next frequency and repeat the process.

Your equipment and your playing environment will always have an effect on the overall tone. One day it sounds great in a rehearsal space, the next it sounds bad on a bar stage. Something to remember.
Gotta love tubes!
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If you're interested in the chicken head knob replacement on my Roadster amp, go here:
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carpediem666
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by carpediem666 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:43 am

Thanks for that really useful info that I've been looking for.

Basically I only have the eq slightly boosted on the 100hz up to about 1-2 decibels and the same for the 800 as well. I find too much and it starts to feedback more when letting powerchords ring.

I can post some links to how its sounded from a live gig that I did a few weeks back if it helps.

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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by YellowJacket » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:19 am

10 - 12 O'Clock for mids still isn't really a boosted midrange. Try setting it higher and see how it goes.

Also, perhaps use a drive pickup in your guitar that boosts high mids. (Seymour Duncan JB or Bare Knuckle Rebel Yell)

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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by joe web » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:28 pm

i used to have my mids around 1-2 o´clock on my dual recto, highs a bit more as mids and bass somewhere between 11 and 1 o´clock - just how i liked it at that moment.
presence about 10 or 11 o´clock - on the 2 channel in vintage mode with silicone diodes.
using a marshall cab with G12T75s and V30s mixed.
never used any extra EQs with the recto.
for more sustain during solos i used and still use the MXR ZW-44 overdrive.
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by screamingdaisy » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:02 pm

Try turning the treble down.

The way the Recto's EQ works is that the signal is run in series from the treble, to the mids, then to the bass... and the higher you run each control the less signal is passed to the next in the series. So as you increase the treble you decrease the mids and bass, and vice versa. Sometimes when you want more mids it's actually more effective to turn down the treble than it is to turn up the midrange knob.

Additionally, don't be afraid of the presence knob. It operates in the upper midrange area and increasing it will add a lot of punch and immediacy to your sound, which can help you cut a bit better in a mix.
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Re: Help with cutting through a band mix

Post by guitarrhinoceros » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:00 pm

I couldn't disagree more about the suggestion to turn up the presence. I always found that would make my Dual Rec sound too thin and 'not present' in the overall mix. I prefer to keep my presence around noon whenever I use a Rectifier on the road.

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