Soon-to-be Recto user has a couple questions before buying

Hi everyone, I just joined the forum and love all the info that's posted here. I've often been an admirer of the Rectifier series, some of my favorite guitarists use them, and when I finally sat down and played a new DR through a 4x12 cab at Guitar Sphincter, er, I mean Guitar Center a couple of months ago, I fell in in love with it and decided I needed to buy a DR.

Now the dilemma... I could get a ton of options with the new DR without having to shell out for a Roaster or Mark V, but do I need to get the brand new multi-watt head, or is the previous 100W 3-channel head "just as good?" That is, is the extra headroom going to drastically change the amount of distortion I'm going to get out of it vs. switching to a 50W mode? And do I even need at 50W mode? I've been playing on a 30W combo for a few years and it's LOUD, but not punchy enough to give me the low end I liked from the DR and 4x12 rig I tested in the store.

The other thing is what cabinet to get? I haven't decided if I want to get the Recto 4x12 or if the 2x12 will suffice until we start playing much larger venues... and do I even want to consider other cabs? The GC where I played the amp has a couple used Marshall 1960 4x12 cabs and a few others that I considered playing the DR through to see how it sounded.

My situation is this: I play at medium size venues in a hard/alternative-rock band with another guitarist who uses a Line 6 head and Fender 2x12 cab. You can see what gear I used in my sig. I'd like to use my GT-8 as the channel switcher for the amp, using a MIDI device like the Voodoo Labs Control Switcher, so I can coordinate FX and channels at the same time without having to tap-dance. I want basically a nice sparkly clean, a good chunky rhythm distortion, and a singing lead. But I'd like to minimize the expense by considering a used 3-channel DR and possibly a different cab... but I love that tone I heard when I played through the amp and would like to not stray much if at all from it.

Anyway, any input on these questions would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
Benjamin

to answer your question about the need for the multi-watt..

It's not always NEEDED but a great feature to have. for example, with my Roadster, i didn't buy it for the ability to switch wattage, that was just a cool little addition.....now i personally think it's a necessity as i can crank my amp a little harder at 50W which gives me that little bit more push at above-bedroom-practice-volumes but i don't have that super low-end like using the 100W setting. If volume at home is not always a problem, then the older 3 channels might just work for you. Another thing to consider is your GT-8. Are you using the effects in that or just using it as a controller? If you're using the effects in the four-cable-method, it's almost a necessity to get the new multi-watt head as it has a serial effects loop and won't bugger with your tone like a parallel loop will in that circumstance.

As for choice of cabs...

this is also subjective, as at home, a 2x12 won't wake up the house as much as a 4x12 (especially on 50W setting) But a 4x12 gives better projection and punch on stage. Out in the audience it kind of doesn't matter as they hear what the soundguy tells them to hear. But onstage (where i personally think it matters), do you think a 2x12 will be enough? Or do you really want to FEEL your playing on the platform. If a 2x12 is enough, then by all means go the 2x12 route as they are lighter, easier to transport in smaller spaces, almost as loud as a 4x12 yet still hold back enough with the low end so you can turn your amp up a little louder at night without rumbling the place down PLUS they're cheaper. But generally a 4x12 will sound bigger, thicker, project sound a bit better, and give you that big FEEL onstage (and IMHO, i use a 4x12 for all those reasons and am willing to sacrifice the 2x12 pros for just that)..

Or you could always just get 2 2x12's....

tenlbham said:

Now the dilemma... I could get a ton of options with the new DR without having to shell out for a Roaster or Mark V, but do I need to get the brand new multi-watt head, or is the previous 100W 3-channel head "just as good?" That is, is the extra headroom going to drastically change the amount of distortion I'm going to get out of it vs. switching to a 50W mode? And do I even need at 50W mode? I've been playing on a 30W combo for a few years and it's LOUD, but not punchy enough to give me the low end I liked from the DR and 4x12 rig I tested in the store.

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To me, the most valuable new feature on the 2010 head is the ability to assign rectifier by channel. I like to use vintage high gain with the tube rectifier on for leads as the tube rectifier has more sag and a better legato feel. I like modern high gain with the solid state rectifier for maximum punch and aggressive ball kicking when playing rhythm parts. It kind of bums me out that I can't do that with my current Recto.

The other thing is what cabinet to get? I haven't decided if I want to get the Recto 4x12 or if the 2x12 will suffice until we start playing much larger venues... and do I even want to consider other cabs? The GC where I played the amp has a couple used Marshall 1960 4x12 cabs and a few others that I considered playing the DR through to see how it sounded.

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Cabs come down to personal taste. I have the Recto 2x12 and 4x12 slant and I prefer the 4x12 as I find it produces a little bit more midrange than the 2x12. Beyond that they sound really similar. THAT SAID, my 2x12 sees a lot more action than my 4x12 due to it being way easier to move between my house, rehearsals and the whisky vendor.

The new 2010 recto has better cleans and slightly tighter gain so that is a major +1.

As far as cabs, the 2x12 is well efficient enough to play good sized gigs but I sold mine because it was hard to hear due to my height. I sold it to a shorter buddy of mine and he loves it and stopped using his recto 4x12 cab as where I started using my recto 4x12 cab. The only way I, being taller, was able to hear the 2x12 over my band was to be far in front of the cab. In some gigs we played, that was a big issue.

I thought if I got the 2x12, I would stand it upright (on it's side) so it had more vertical projection, but the 4x12 has the angled upper speakers which would be a bonus for personal monitoring as well as overall projection. I'm torn... torn!!!

tenlbham said:

I thought if I got the 2x12, I would stand it upright (on it's side) so it had more vertical projection, but the 4x12 has the angled upper speakers which would be a bonus for personal monitoring as well as overall projection. I'm torn... torn!!!

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Oddly enough, a horizontal cab has more vertical projection than a vertical cab. It has to do with the way speakers couple together.

This assumes we're talking straight cabs... introduce a slant and it changes things.

screamingdaisy said:

tenlbham said:

I thought if I got the 2x12, I would stand it upright (on it's side) so it had more vertical projection, but the 4x12 has the angled upper speakers which would be a bonus for personal monitoring as well as overall projection. I'm torn... torn!!!

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Oddly enough, a horizontal cab has more vertical projection than a vertical cab. It has to do with the way speakers couple together.

This assumes we're talking straight cabs... introduce a slant and it changes things.

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Are you talking about a 2x12 having more vertical projection than a 2x12 standing on it's side (vertically) or a 4x12 straight cab? Either way I don't get that :shock:

tenlbham said:

Are you talking about a 2x12 having more vertical projection than a 2x12 standing on it's side (vertically) or a 4x12 straight cab? Either way I don't get that :shock:

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It seems kind of odd, but it has to do with speaker coupling. Speakers coupled horizontally disperse better up and down than they do side to side. Speakers coupled vertically disperse better side to side than they do up and down. It's why when you go to a concert you'll see tall stacks of speakers on each side of the stage instead of a massive row of speakers across the top.... vertical speaker arrays spread the sound better horizontally across the audience.... but they don't do the up and down thing so well, so they have to angle the bottom speakers so that the front rows can hear it (which is a similar concept to the angled 4x12). Sometimes they'll add fill speakers across the front of the stage because the front rows are too far under the vertical array to get the full effect.

4x12s couple both horizontally and vertically. It's why people complain about how 'beamy' they are. It's also why you typically can't hear a straight 4x12 properly until you're 30 to 40 feet out in front of it.... it's projecting most of it's sound straight forward. Angled cabs are a little better simply because they angle a couple speakers up so that you can hear them better when closer in.

I have an assortment of cabs and for playing up close I find my angled 4x12 is best, followed by my horizontal 2x12... although the 2x12 can be made better than the 4x12 by sticking a 2x4 piece of wood under the front of it so it becomes an angled cab. The worst is my straight 4x12... I don't even use it any more because it's too hard to hear up close... which is unfortunate because it looks cool.

Ok, I can see that if I picture the sound waves on the plane through the speakers and how there would be lots of coupling vs. those orthogonal to that plane.

So on-stage, it would actually be better to have a 2x12 upright so the waves can distribute better horizontally and fill the stage/room (which is also bad for the player if he's taller and standing close to the cabinet).

Which leaves me with the same conundrum... a 2x12 is almost as much of a beast to transport as a 4x12, but is cheaper, but the 4x12 has better sound projection/distribution. Bah! :?

tenlbham said:

Ok, I can see that if I picture the sound waves on the plane through the speakers and how there would be lots of coupling vs. those orthogonal to that plane.

So on-stage, it would actually be better to have a 2x12 upright so the waves can distribute better horizontally and fill the stage/room (which is also bad for the player if he's taller and standing close to the cabinet).

Which leaves me with the same conundrum... a 2x12 is almost as much of a beast to transport as a 4x12, but is cheaper, but the 4x12 has better sound projection/distribution. Bah! :?

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Depends on the PA. If you're mic'd into a good PA then your ability to project is a moot point since the PA will be doing that for you. In this case your cab is essentially a tone generator and a personal monitor, in which case I would choose one that produces the sound you want in a package that you're willing to carry.

If you're mic'd into a marginal PA, which usually means really shitty monitors since the bar's more likely to invest their limited budget into the part their paying customers can hear, then your ability to hear your cab is even more important and I'd focus on that over spreading the sound out to the audience.

If you're unmic'd then it gets way more complicated... room size, room shape, whether the stage is raised or on the ground, whether the crowd is seated at tables or a standing, drunken mob 3 feet in front of you soaking up every drop of sound you can put out so that the dude 10 feet back can't hear your guitar....

screamingdaisy said:

Depends on the PA. If you're mic'd into a good PA then your ability to project is a moot point since the PA will be doing that for you. In this case your cab is essentially a tone generator and a personal monitor, in which case I would choose one that produces the sound you want in a package that you're willing to carry.

If you're mic'd into a marginal PA, which usually means really sh!t monitors since the bar's more likely to invest their limited budget into the part their paying customers can hear, then your ability to hear your cab is even more important and I'd focus on that over spreading the sound out to the audience.

If you're unmic'd then it gets way more complicated... room size, room shape, whether the stage is raised or on the ground, whether the crowd is seated at tables or a standing, drunken mob 3 feet in front of you soaking up every drop of sound you can put out so that the dude 10 feet back can't hear your guitar....

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All very good points. I've been getting buy with a 30W 112 combo stacked on top of a 112 extension cab for a while without any problem. I would easily be able to get buy with a 212 cab, but I guess I've been more worried about the tonal difference between the 412 & 212... I played the DR through the 412 and loved it and haven't tried to the 212 because I was afraid it wouldn't sound as good.

A high quality 4 x 12 produces the golden standard of distortion tone, and every other unit is judged according to this. A 4 x 12 is loud for practice and home use but if you gig regularly, it is a great option to have. My personal opinion is that owning a 1 x 12, 2 x 12, and a 4 x 12 is the best possible option for a gigging guitarist. Also, it would be ideal to have a small low power tube amp as well as a large high power one.

This way you have the necessary tools on hand, no matter what the venue is.

YellowJacket said:

A high quality 4 x 12 produces the golden standard of distortion tone, and every other unit is judged according to this. A 4 x 12 is loud for practice and home use but if you gig regularly, it is a great option to have. My personal opinion is that owning a 1 x 12, 2 x 12, and a 4 x 12 is the best possible option for a gigging guitarist. Also, it would be ideal to have a small low power tube amp as well as a large high power one.

This way you have the necessary tools on hand, no matter what the venue is.

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I would love to be able to have the spectrum of cabs for all situations, but I only have so much money ;P

I have an Egnater Tweaker 112 extension cabinet already (16 ohm) that I could use for low-volume settings, but the 212 Rectifier cab would likely do just fine for the same, right?

Well, that is great you have the combo and the 1 x 12 already.

What size venues will you be playing? As I understand it, the new rectos can switch down to 50watts and a 4 x 12 really gives projection more than loudness, especially in a stage situation with a drummer. They don't work for extreme low volume situations such as apartments but I don't think that will be a problem for you. 4 x 12s definitely sound the best for dirt so it is a question of whether your back is up to the challenge of moving one or not. We are looking at a 110+ lb unit for a 4 x 12 vs a 60lb unit for a close back 2 x 12.
If you want something somewhere in between the tone of a 2 x 12 rectocab and a 4 x 12 rectocab, the Mills Acoustics Mach212B definitely gets my full approval for the phattest 2 x 12 I have ever heard. It will weigh somewhere between a 2 x 12 Rectocab and a 4 x 12 rectocab, and it is also quite large, but it sounds awesome. The big trade off is that a 4 x 12 is simply beefier sounding. (Incidentally, the mills unit also COSTS somewhere between a 2 x 12 rectocab and a 4 x 12 rectocab.)

Tonewise, the 2 x 12 rectocab is more focused, tighter, more punchy, and has a much greater emphasis on mids. It sounds much more even than the saggy scooped tone of the 4 x 12 rectocab which may be a huge plus or minus, depending what you want.

As for loudness, speaker sensitivity is the biggest determining factor. The higher the speaker sensitivity, the louder the cab. If you want to suck volume but still have a BIG sound, a more vintage 4 x 12 will do this well. For instance, the Marshall 1960ax (100 watt) cab with greenbacks will sound open and 'cranked' at much lower volumes than the mesa rectocab. This is great if it is the tone you are going for. That being said, if you like the rectocab you are best off to simply get that and call it a day. You have your egnator and extension cab ( 1 x 12 and 2 x 12) for small gigs so you are SET!

tenlbham said:

I have an Egnater Tweaker 112 extension cabinet already (16 ohm) that I could use for low-volume settings, but the 212 Rectifier cab would likely do just fine for the same, right?

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Yes. I have the run from a 4x12, 2x12 and a couple of 1x12s. I do a lot of unmic'd stuff so having a variety is nice. A 2x12 isn't any louder than a 1x12 and I usually use the 2x12 due to it being a bit beefier.

YellowJacket said:

Tonewise, the 2 x 12 rectocab is more focused, tighter, more punchy, and has a much greater emphasis on mids. It sounds much more even than the saggy scooped tone of the 4 x 12 rectocab which may be a huge plus or minus, depending what you want.

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My Recto 4x12 (slant) produces more mids and articulates detail better than my Recto 2x12. Tightness/sag are pretty close. I'd have to double check before commenting, and my house is currently nursing hangovers.... my wife would kill me if I cranked any amp up to sag inducing levels today.

I could see the straight 4x12 being looser, more scooped and boomier... I've never actually tried one.

screamingdaisy said:

Yes. I have the run from a 4x12, 2x12 and a couple of 1x12s. I do a lot of unmic'd stuff so having a variety is nice. A 2x12 isn't any louder than a 1x12 and I usually use the 2x12 due to it being a bit beefier.

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2 x 12s are beefier which is why I prefer them over a 1 x 12. I have no room in my place otherwise I'd run a greenback loaded 4 x 12 since to me, nothing else sounds THAT awesome.

My Recto 4x12 (slant) produces more mids and articulates detail better than my Recto 2x12. Tightness/sag are pretty close. I'd have to double check before commenting, and my house is currently nursing hangovers.... my wife would kill me if I cranked any amp up to sag inducing levels today.

I could see the straight 4x12 being looser, more scooped and boomier... I've never actually tried one.

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Weird. I'd say a Stiletto 4 x 12 is tight, mid focused, and articulate. My slant recto was super beefy but I found it to be muddy, although I bet it had everything to do with how vastly different our tones are. (I run much more gain for a heavier and more modern rock tone) The moral of the story here is *TRY EVERYTHING* since everyone wants something different!

Oh btw, how are the WGS Green Berets treating you? How do they compare to v30s in terms of loudness? WGS rates them at 99bs / watt / metre which is far more sensitive than the G12m heritage I have (96 db / watt / metre).

YellowJacket said:

Oh btw, how are the WGS Green Berets treating you? How do they compare to v30s in terms of loudness? WGS rates them at 99bs / watt / metre which is far more sensitive than the G12m heritage I have (96 db / watt / metre).

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I like them, for all the same reasons I said before.

As for volume, they're much quieter than V30s. I don't know how WGS rated them but I think they're a little more liberal than Celestion in this case.

Well, I done it...

I have a 2010 Dual Rectifier sitting on top of a 2x12 Recto cab in my jam room.

Now the fun begins... some good, some bad...

I've played for the past couple of hours and set up the 3 channels to sound pretty dang good (courtesy of Mr. Petrucci's "how I set up my Mark V" video... no, it's not the same amp, but the same principles apply and it sounds REALLY awesome).

So now I'm trying to set up my GT-8 with it in 4CM fashion, but I'm having some trouble and getting a little confused about how the DR's FX loop is supposed to work in this configuration. At first I had the Send Level knob in the 12:00 detent position (I wasn't sure if I should mess with it), and tweaked the patch on my GT to get the level up so that it sounded similar in volume & gain w/o the GT. Then I noticed that when I turned off the loop, I was getting a lower volume out of the amp... ahhhh, now I start messing with the Send Level. I turned it all the way down and was getting some very low volume bleed through... is that normal? Then, obviously, when I turned the knob past 12:00, it got MUCH louder.

So how am I supposed to set this up properly??? My deepest apologies if this info is already out there... I did some searches on the board but couldn't find it, and I'm going off of 3 hours sleep from last night cus I was too excited about possibly buying the amp today and now I'm feeling kind of loopy... er, no pun intended... :roll:

And if there is a post out there already explaining this, I'd appreciate a link to it

screamingdaisy said:

YellowJacket said:

Oh btw, how are the WGS Green Berets treating you? How do they compare to v30s in terms of loudness? WGS rates them at 99bs / watt / metre which is far more sensitive than the G12m heritage I have (96 db / watt / metre).

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I like them, for all the same reasons I said before.

As for volume, they're much quieter than V30s. I don't know how WGS rated them but I think they're a little more liberal than Celestion in this case.

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Can you possibly post another video? I'm trying to decide if I want to swap a speaker out of my theile cab or not. See, I was thinking running two lower efficiency speakers would help keep the volume lower with that more vintage sounding cab. WGS sensitivity ratings are weird. The Reaper 30 and the Reaper 55Hz are rated at 99db/watt/metre, just like the the Green Beret. The thing I like the best about the G12m Heritage is how it has a sensitivity of 96db/watt/metre vs the Celestion v30 which puts out 100db/watt/metre. I'm wanting to drop the overall output of that cab so that I am 'ahead' of the game for low volume tones. This way, whatever method I use to get my 'cranked tone' at lower volumes will require a very modest prescription.
But ya, you totally understand why I like greenbacks. That comment you made before about running a dual with EL-34s and Greenbacks to get a tone that make the Marshall guys do a double take. That is EXACTLY what I am going for here.

http://www.bossgtcentral.com/showthread.php?18926-Setting-up-a-GT-8-w-Dual-Rectifier