The Boogie Board

Discussion Forum for Mesa Boogie Products
It is currently Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:28 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:26 pm 
Offline
Bottle Rocket

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:07 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Jensen Beach, FL
My live sound is muddy and is being swallowed by my bass player!

I have been struggling with getting lost in the mix while playing live. I have tweaked the EQ to compensate, but the tone suffers when doing so. I decided that a complete tube swap was in order seeing how I bought this amp second hand and I have no idea when the last time the tubes were replaced. I just ordered the following tubes from Doug's tubes and I am hoping it will help solve my problem.

Pre Amp - Dual Rec Hard Rock Pre Amp Kit
V1 - Tung 12AX7
V2 - JJ ECC83
V3 - Ruby 7025SS HG or Ruby 12AX7AC4 HG
V4 - Puby 7025SS HG or Ruby 12AX7AC4 HG
V5 - Sovtek 12AX7 LPS

Power Amp
4 x Ruby 6L6GCBSTR

Rectifier
2 X EH 5U4GB

I have a couple of questions associated with the tube swap.
1) Will the power tubes come in matched pairs (like Mesa tubes) or will all 4 be matched? I want to be sure to install them in the appropriate positions. Also, I am assuming since these tubes were listed in Doug's Tubes Dual Rec Kit, they will be biased correctly...is this a safe assumption?

2) Does anyone have any experience with Doug's tube kits? I am really hoping this helps improve my live tone.

A couple of other tidbits of info: I use a Tube Screamer Mini and an Exotic EP Booster in front of the amp with the gain at zero on both to help tighten things up.

I could really use some insights from you guys. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:30 pm 
Offline
Mark III

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:03 pm
Posts: 285
Location: Dayton Ohio
1. matched pairs in the correct bias range

2. my experience is that I didn't like it, maybe it was the Chinese tubes, I do like Tung Sol and JJ.

I don't use any boost pedals or the effects loop (off), and I use the silicon rec because it tightens up my tone.
I hope some new glass will make a difference!

Good Luck

_________________
90' Mark III Coliseum blue stripe
95' Dual RevG
96' Triple RevF (2)
04' Recto 4x12
07' Recto 4x12-EVM12L's
09' Mills (2)-4X12-V30
96' Explorer
03' Faded V
07' Prophecy
13' Government V


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:52 pm 
Offline
Bottle Rocket

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:07 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Jensen Beach, FL
I appreciate the insight, thank you!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:48 pm 
Offline
Bottle Rocket

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:07 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Jensen Beach, FL
Tube swap complete. Slight improvement in tone, but nothing drastic. Still tweaking to find my place in the mix. I think my problem is that I like a more scooped sound, but that just isn't cutting it in a live setting. I have raised the mids to 1:00, highs to 2:00, lows reduced to 9:00 and presence raised to 12:00. Gain is set to 12:00 and I am now only boosting with a TS (gain is 0, tone is 2:30). Channel volume is 10:30 with master volume at 9:30. I am using diode rectifier on bold. I can atleast hear myself now. Although the tone isn't something I am excited about. Effects loop send level is something I haven't really tweaked too much. I have it at 3.5. Maybe adjustments there would make difference? Or I could start all over with a Friedman JJ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:34 pm 
Offline
Mark III
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:51 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Texas
Tell your bass player to get out of your midrange region. You are also probably accentuating your lows in his area as well.

My bassist has a graphic EQ built into his amp. The frequency to choose from are 40, 100, 250, 625, 1.6K, 4K, and 10K.

The Dual Rectifier seems to have a resonance peak roughly around 172Hz - 205Hz depending on tuning (My experience here is all tone knobs flat 12:00, Guitars tuned between C and F standard tuning using half step intervals. C, C#, D, D#, E, F using A=440Hz).

Looking at my bassist's eq the closest slider to MY amp's resonance peak is the 250Hz slider. So, we pulled that slider all the way down, or out. Next, ALL bass guitars have a resonance peak at 800Hz give or take a few Hz. Seeing that 625 on his EQ is still slightly in the guitar's spectrum, we pulled that slider back about 3Db, but increased his 1.6K slider to shift the peak between 625 and 1.6K as close to 800Hz as possible without using an outboard parametric or another graphic. The increase was not quite 3Db and we had to slide both frequency sliders back and forth at same time until the 800Hz would pop out(very noticeable frequency for bass). Gave him a little boost at 4K for pick click (he plays with a pick due to nephropathy in his hands due to cancer treatments) and killed high end hiss by rolling back the 10K slider about 8Db. Mind you this was also with his treble and bass eq knobs at 12:00. The 40Hz was boosted until you could feel something low frequency change and I increased the slider gain. The 100Hz was increased until his lows became solid and not mushy.

Now we played against each other. Both guitars and Bass. Now the guitars had come forward, but now bass started getting lost. Now I had our drummer increase the bass knob EQ until there was a distinct different low frequency heard by all. Increased it until it became slightly overpowering, then backed it off until right before that point. Next the drummer increased the treble eq knob until the bass popped right out and sounded perfect.

It actually sounded like a cross between DD from Overkill's bass tone on Elimination and Steve 'Arris' overall tone until he hit the on switch to his sh!t(dude loves Cronos' bulldozer bass sound but wont accept Cronos' tone comes from him playing through a Marshall Superbass cranked and he kills his tone with a Boss HM2 not set to Swedish deathmetal settings). even when his amp will distort using the tube channel :twisted: :evil:

Find the tone you like first in a band setting. Especially when playing metal. The bass should compliment the guitas tonally while retaining a character of its own. the only bands that I see doing that different are Iron Maiden and Motorhead. Meshuggah actually tunes the bass higher than the guitars and attacks the tone spectrum from that angle, but that is because the guitars are tuned so f%&# low the bass is used to clarify their muddy tone. Saying this the guitars have to compliment the whole package. Have someone the bad knows and trusts and who has a good ear come in and listen to a rehearsal and give you guys an honest opinion on guitar/bass tone. Then make the changes to see if an improvement is made. Dont have an ego if your tone sucks and you have to change. Guitars in a band sound different than guitars at home. Once you get the band settings down on YOUR tone use the same sound at home so you can avoid the whole I love the Line6 Ultimate setting cause its badass scooped sh!t newb mistake. Once you get used to band setting guitar tone at home, you will learn that most tones more inexperienced guitarists choose sound totall garbage (one of the main reasons why I wear ear plug into a store like Sam Ash or GC), and it will make you want to go change a dude's settings on the amp he is using or go drop kick him in the chest(depending on his skill level). I am being faceteous here, but this is the reason why experienced guitarists(or those old farts) complain about a younger dude's tone.

Short example then Ill shutup. Randy Rhoads tone. f%&# Epitome of Heavy Metal guitar tone period end of story (f%&# you it is not hissy go f%&# yourself old man you dont know sh!t, go listen to Led Zeppelin or some other old f%&# music). The words insde ( & ) are MY personal beliefs to this day. No his tone is not hissy, but compared to the guitar tone of UFO, Ted Nugent, Kiss, Black Sabbath, Scorpions, Judas Priest, Tigers of Pantang, Queen, etc.. from THAT era of harder music, yes it was hissy. BUT not due to his Altec Speakers loaded in his cabinets. It was because he was using a MXR Distortion+ followed by a MXR 10 band graphic pulling out all the garbage frequencies of that pedal while simultaneously tailoring his EQ to be as harsh and offensively aggressive they could get his tone to be to launch Blizzard of Oz's as the hardest, heaviest band at the time. Which it was, until a Accept released Restless and Wild which essentially anally raped Blizzard of Oz then went ass to mouth without washing up first with the opening track. Guitar tone peaked with Restless and Wild across the metal genre for crunch and tone until Scott Ian upped the bar with Stormtroopers of Death's guitar tone(one he should just go back to using and stop with trying to chase that dragon). It changed again with Swedish death metal, then eventually went back to approximations of S.O.D. mixed with Possessed, and Bolt Thrower if those three band's guitar tones had a threesome and modern guitar tone is their offspring. Nowadays the only guitar tone that sounds somewhat different than others is Vader, and all they are doing is approximating mid to late era thrash/death metal via eastern European technology. Piotr and Spider use Piotr's two channel Dual rec to record with and Dual Rectifiers live. (Now Laboga Mr Hector, but thats a DR clone). Me? I try for the black sheep of the family if Restless and Wild, Seven Churches, and Speak English Or Die guitar tones were Human Centipeded in reverse and shat out a guitar tone. Do I sound like that with my tone through my DR? No clue how close I am, but those three albums tones are the overall I am gunning for (maybe my wishing makes me feel good about it and thats cool too).

To recap, You and your bassist are walking over each others tonal ranges. Carve out holes for each other. Create a band tone, and stop using a sh!t scooped tone unless it augments ya'lls music(Deicide's worked for them but their guitar tone?, man!). HAVE FUN!!!

_________________
Dual Rectifier
Recto 4 x 12 Straight v30s

Ibanez RG560
BC Rich Beast (Fully Understand it's namesake now)

"Efficiunt Daemones, ut quae non sunt, sic tamen quasi sint, conspicienda hominibus exhibeant." - Lactantius


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:51 am 
Offline
Bottle Rocket

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:07 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Jensen Beach, FL
Thank you for your insights. I ended up buying a Friedman JJ. It doesn't have a bad sound in it. I am able to have a nice thick tone that pops out in the mix. Ive gigged it several times, and it really sounds great. It fits nicely with the band. The other guitar player uses a Friedman modified Plexi (basically a BE 100). The 2 amps sound great together. As of now, the DR is a back up. Thanks again for all of your insights, I certainly appreciate it.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group