New tubes, tone still changes randomly

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Tone1026

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So i just put in a full new set of JJ tubes, and am still noticing a change in tone as i play. It's either a sudden drop in high end, or it is starting out thin.. sometimes it does it shortly after i start playing, it also will switch to sounding thin after playing for a while.

Had mesa tubes in it, they did the same thing..

its not my ears it does it even at low volumes

2 channel trip.

what other than tubes can cause it..
 
Clean all your pot's with DeoxIT F5 (fader lube).
Clean all your input jacks with DeoxIT D5 (contact cleaner).

That's a start.
 
Check your screen grid resistors, the resistors themselves and particularly the solder connections.

Just saw your picture of the scorch mark on your tube, and it looks confusing. :? It's hard to follow your amp problem across the umpteen threads that you have about the same amp. On the tube it looks like the scorch mark is between pins 3 and 4, which makes sense if the tube failed and took out a screen grid resistor. But, the socket looks like the scorch mark is between pins 1 and 2, which doesn't jive with the scorch mark on the tube. It's as if your tubes are plugged in to the wrong pins on the socket.

In your picture, is the socket key-way towards the top of the picture (front of the amp)? And, is the scorch mark on the tube between pins 3 and 4? The pin numbers are visible on the bottom of the tube. The socket numbers start with 1 immediately to the left of the key-way, and count upwards in a CCW direction looking at the socket from the top.

Edit:
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=63860
 
This looked like someone having a minor problem.
I didn't realize the original poster had another thread.
It looks like a major problem.

A little more facts in the post, and I would have not made the simple suggestions.

Best of luck to you!

And, please let everyone know what the problem is, when you find out.
 
shimmilou said:
Check your screen grid resistors, the resistors themselves and particularly the solder connections.

Just saw your picture of the scorch mark on your tube, and it looks confusing. :? It's hard to follow your amp problem across the umpteen threads that you have about the same amp. On the tube it looks like the scorch mark is between pins 3 and 4, which makes sense if the tube failed and took out a screen grid resistor. But, the socket looks like the scorch mark is between pins 1 and 2, which doesn't jive with the scorch mark on the tube. It's as if your tubes are plugged in to the wrong pins on the socket.

In your picture, is the socket key-way towards the top of the picture (front of the amp)? And, is the scorch mark on the tube between pins 3 and 4? The pin numbers are visible on the bottom of the tube. The socket numbers start with 1 immediately to the left of the key-way, and count upwards in a CCW direction looking at the socket from the top.

Sorry i should have posted this in the sudden changes to tone thread.
after looking again the scorch does not correspond to the underside. the scorch on the underside is closer to the rec sockets, the one on the top side is closer to the other pt sockets.

What am i looking for in regards to screen grid resistors, other than loose solder joints?

is deoxit d series acceptable to clean pots? Ive notices the orange channel presense effects sound far more in vintage than orange to modern..

The tonal change sound similar to a change in presence,

I don't think it is related to any of my other gear.
 
Tone1026 said:
...What am i looking for in regards to screen grid resistors, other than loose solder joints?...

The resistors that connect to pin 4 of the output tube sockets. Check each for value (and scorch marks), they are maybe 470 ohm 1 watt, or 1K ohm, 2 watt, resistors, not sure which are on your amp. The ohms value is on the resistors themselves.

But first, could you please answer this?

shimmilou said:
...In your picture, is the socket key-way (the divot in the hole in the center of the socket) towards the top of the picture (front of the amp)? And, is the scorch mark on the tube between pins 3 and 4? The pin numbers are visible on the bottom of the tube. The socket numbers start with 1 immediately to the left of the key-way, and count upwards in a CCW direction looking at the socket from the top.
 
shimmilou said:
Tone1026 said:
...What am i looking for in regards to screen grid resistors, other than loose solder joints?...

The resistors that connect to pin 4 of the output tube sockets. Check each for value (and scorch marks), they are maybe 470 ohm 1 watt, or 1K ohm, 2 watt, resistors, not sure which are on your amp. The ohms value is on the resistors themselves.

But first, could you please answer this?

shimmilou said:
...In your picture, is the socket key-way (the divot in the hole in the center of the socket) towards the top of the picture (front of the amp)? And, is the scorch mark on the tube between pins 3 and 4? The pin numbers are visible on the bottom of the tube. The socket numbers start with 1 immediately to the left of the key-way, and count upwards in a CCW direction looking at the socket from the top.
Top of pic is rear of amp. Key slot is on left in pic.
 
I'm referring to this picture. So, I take it that the key-way would be on the right, at the 3 o'clock position? If so, that would jive with the scorch mark being between pins 3 and 4 on the tube. Looking at the far right tube socket, it looks like the key-way is at the top at the 12 o'clock position, pointing toward the transformer, but maybe it's just the picture. Can you confirm that the scorch on the tube is between pins 3 and 4, looking at the numbers molded into the bottom of the tube, and that the key-way is at the 3 o'clock position in this picture? The evidence on the bottom of the tube key, smoky looking stuff on the tip of the key, is that something inside the chassis smoked, and typically this would be a screen grid resistor, indicating a bad tube. If you only replace the bad tube, the resistor would still be burnt and not allow that tube to work properly.

 
shimmilou said:
I'm referring to this picture. So, I take it that the key-way would be on the right, at the 3 o'clock position? If so, that would jive with the scorch mark being between pins 3 and 4 on the tube. Looking at the far right tube socket, it looks like the key-way is at the top at the 12 o'clock position, pointing toward the transformer, but maybe it's just the picture. Can you confirm that the scorch on the tube is between pins 3 and 4, looking at the numbers molded into the bottom of the tube, and that the key-way is at the 3 o'clock position in this picture? The evidence on the bottom of the tube key, smoky looking stuff on the tip of the key, is that something inside the chassis smoked, and typically this would be a screen grid resistor, indicating a bad tube. If you only replace the bad tube, the resistor would still be burnt and not allow that tube to work properly.


The far right and middle are both rectifier sockets, not power tube sockets. The key slots for the power tubes are in the 3 oclock position.The scorch is between pins 3 and 4. The key slots for the rectifier tubes are in the 12 oclock position. Ill have to take it apart and take a closer look to see if i see evidence of what you are talking about. i will take more pics..

Whats a burnt resistor look like?

Switching to red then back to orange, or sometimes from modern to normal and back to modern makes the thinness go away.
 
Tone1026 said:
...Whats a burnt resistor look like?...

Similar to a burnt marshmallow. :lol:

Sometimes, if it is a blue colored FP (flame-proof) or FR (flame-resistant) it's only cracked and slightly discolored, sometimes only cracked and not noticeable so you would have to physically try to push on it to see if it's intact. But, also measure the value with an ohm meter, pulling the tube so it can be checked in the circuit. If you can't read the value (color code), just compare all 4 of the resistors with each tube pulled when measuring. If it is the brown carbon, or carbon film resistor, it will be easily noticeable as burnt, with the smoky carbon residue all around the resistor.
 
shimmilou said:
Tone1026 said:
...Whats a burnt resistor look like?...

Similar to a burnt marshmallow. :lol:

Sometimes, if it is a blue colored FP (flame-proof) or FR (flame-resistant) it's only cracked and slightly discolored, sometimes only cracked and not noticeable so you would have to physically try to push on it to see if it's intact. But, also measure the value with an ohm meter, pulling the tube so it can be checked in the circuit. If you can't read the value (color code), just compare all 4 of the resistors with each tube pulled when measuring. If it is the brown carbon, or carbon film resistor, it will be easily noticeable as burnt, with the smoky carbon residue all around the resistor.

Looks something like this?



Should i not play on the amp till it is replaced?
 
Bingo! Looks like a 1K ohm precision resistor, and I'm guessing 2 watt. Whichever tube that was in that socket when the problem first occurred is likely toast (the one with the scorch mark on the base), throw that tube away. Any tubes that you've put into that socket after that are probably not damaged, they just won't work properly, but you should still clean the scorch marks and the smoky carbon dust off of all parts as it is conductive. A small soft toothbrush, some Q-tips, and some contact cleaner, or rubbing alcohol, will clean everything off. Use the contact cleaner and/or rubbing alcohol sparingly, and make sure everything is dried off well before using the amp again.

The screen grid in the tube is kind of like a regulating valve, and when it doesn't have voltage applied, the tube won't fully conduct and doesn't operate properly. The screen grid resistor limits the amount of voltage applied to the screen grid, so if the resistor is open or burnt (like yours), no voltage will be applied to the screen grid and you might notice a loss of volume. Sometimes a burnt resistor like this can be intermittent, so the volume might come and go as you've described. You might even have another screen grid resistor problem.

While you are in there replacing that bad resistor, check all other screen grid resistors closely too. IMO, when replacing output tubes, it is best to replace them in matched pairs (inner pair, or outer pair), with each pair being very closely matched to the other pair, or better yet replace them with matched quads, and then check/set the bias properly. I'm not sure if your amp has a bias adjustment pot or not (probably not), but if not, the bias can still be set by changing the value of a resistor in the bias circuit which might be necessary when using tubes other than Mesa tubes, or just use Mesa replacement tubes and theoretically the bias would be correct (I would still check it). It is quite possible that using output tubes other than Mesa tubes can cause problems with a Mesa amp. Some tubes will draw very high current, depending on the rating of the tube, and if the bias isn't adjusted, damage like you have here can occur, or worse. It's always best to get tubes that are rated properly for your amp, or adjust the bias to the tubes used.

I do not have the schematics for your amp (it's similar to a Dual Rec), but you can trace the circuit back to the bias circuit. Starting from pin 5 to what looks like a 1.5K ohm control grid resistor, (Brown-Green-Black-Brown), then next possibly a 220K ohm resistor (Red-Red-Black-Red, or Red-Red-Orange) that will connect to another resistor of the same value (going back to another 1.5K ohm resistor to another output tube), and where those two 220K ohm resistors meet the next connected resistor should be the bias resistor. (or pot if there is one).

No, I wouldn't use the amp at all until it is repaired.
 
shimmilou said:
Bingo! Looks like a 1K ohm precision resistor, and I'm guessing 2 watt. Whichever tube that was in that socket when the problem first occurred is likely toast (the one with the scorch mark on the base), throw that tube away. Any tubes that you've put into that socket after that are probably not damaged, they just won't work properly, but you should still clean the scorch marks and the smoky carbon dust off of all parts as it is conductive. A small soft toothbrush, some Q-tips, and some contact cleaner, or rubbing alcohol, will clean everything off. Use the contact cleaner and/or rubbing alcohol sparingly, and make sure everything is dried off well before using the amp again.

The screen grid in the tube is kind of like a regulating valve, and when it doesn't have voltage applied, the tube won't fully conduct and doesn't operate properly. The screen grid resistor limits the amount of voltage applied to the screen grid, so if the resistor is open or burnt (like yours), no voltage will be applied to the screen grid and you might notice a loss of volume. Sometimes a burnt resistor like this can be intermittent, so the volume might come and go as you've described. You might even have another screen grid resistor problem.

While you are in there replacing that bad resistor, check all other screen grid resistors closely too. IMO, when replacing output tubes, it is best to replace them in matched pairs (inner pair, or outer pair), with each pair being very closely matched to the other pair, or better yet replace them with matched quads, and then check/set the bias properly. I'm not sure if your amp has a bias adjustment pot or not (probably not), but if not, the bias can still be set by changing the value of a resistor in the bias circuit which might be necessary when using tubes other than Mesa tubes, or just use Mesa replacement tubes and theoretically the bias would be correct (I would still check it). It is quite possible that using output tubes other than Mesa tubes can cause problems with a Mesa amp. Some tubes will draw very high current, depending on the rating of the tube, and if the bias isn't adjusted, damage like you have here can occur, or worse. It's always best to get tubes that are rated properly for your amp, or adjust the bias to the tubes used.

I do not have the schematics for your amp (it's similar to a Dual Rec), but you can trace the circuit back to the bias circuit. Starting from pin 5 to what looks like a 1.5K ohm control grid resistor, (Brown-Green-Black-Brown), then next possibly a 220K ohm resistor (Red-Red-Black-Red, or Red-Red-Orange) that will connect to another resistor of the same value (going back to another 1.5K ohm resistor to another output tube), and where those two 220K ohm resistors meet the next connected resistor should be the bias resistor. (or pot if there is one).

No, I wouldn't use the amp at all until it is repaired.

I spoke with the local certified mesa repair guy, he said it wouldnt hurt it to play it, it would just not sound as good.
Will any 1 k 2 watt resistor work?
 
Not the best advice. You have at least one burnt resistor, conductive carbon on the inside of the amp, you don't know the condition of the other tubes, yet you want to use the amp? You should finish checking the other resistors and tubes and clean the carbon soot from the amp first. Then, spend the couple of dollars for a new resistor, put in the proper new output tubes, and do not reuse the burnt tube. It's better for you and your amp to do it right, not half-assed. Or in this case three-quarter-assed. :wink:

You should use a similar resistor, a precision (1% or better), 1K ohm, 2 watt, preferably a flame-proof one. Get the rest of the resistor info from one of the other resistors and try to get the same one if possible.
 
shimmilou said:
Not the best advice. You have at least one burnt resistor, conductive carbon on the inside of the amp, you don't know the condition of the other tubes, yet you want to use the amp? You should finish checking the other resistors and tubes and clean the carbon soot from the amp first. Then, spend the couple of dollars for a new resistor, put in the proper new output tubes, and do not reuse the burnt tube. It's better for you and your amp to do it right, not half-assed. Or in this case three-quarter-assed. :wink:

You should use a similar resistor, a precision (1% or better), 1K ohm, 2 watt, preferably a flame-proof one. Get the rest of the resistor info from one of the other resistors and try to get the same one if possible.

As stated at the top of the post i have done a complete retube. i cleaned the carbon of the tube side, but i do still need to clean off the bottom of the socket. Not sure what to look for in regards to other blown resistors, or how to check them. Could the tube shorting blow multiple resistors?
 
Tone1026 said:
shimmilou said:
Not the best advice. You have at least one burnt resistor, conductive carbon on the inside of the amp, you don't know the condition of the other tubes, yet you want to use the amp? You should finish checking the other resistors and tubes and clean the carbon soot from the amp first. Then, spend the couple of dollars for a new resistor, put in the proper new output tubes, and do not reuse the burnt tube. It's better for you and your amp to do it right, not half-assed. Or in this case three-quarter-assed. :wink:

You should use a similar resistor, a precision (1% or better), 1K ohm, 2 watt, preferably a flame-proof one. Get the rest of the resistor info from one of the other resistors and try to get the same one if possible.

As stated at the top of the post i have done a complete retube. i cleaned the carbon of the tube side, but i do still need to clean off the bottom of the socket. Not sure what to look for in regards to other blown resistors, or how to check them. Could the tube shorting blow multiple resistors?

If you re read the bias incident was after installing the new full set of jjs the scorched tube was a mesa el34
 
Tone1026 said:

Use a metal film, flame proof type. You could probably go up to a 3W size. The resistor you selected is wire wound and has a lower voltage rating. I did not see any maximum operating voltage listed except for the ohms law equation. Metal oxide type would be better. Also the one listed below is rated for high voltage. 1k ohm, 2w, 1%, flame proof, has lower inductance than the wire wound type. Consider the maximum voltage potential.


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMvmQ%2bOLa8n/M6RIedYzYbs9Y9lYFwOm3wo=
 
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