G-System?????

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joeydego
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Re: G-System?????

Post by joeydego » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:15 am

Personally, I use and see a benefit in using trs cables thru ebtechs. Just because you don't have noise in the first 9 venues doesn't mean you shouldn't be protected from noise in the 10th. Nothing more amaturish that steady buzz. For the negligible cost after spending 3 grand on effects and a head, seems to be a no brainer. Read the white paper (Google g system white paper). You can't go wrong if you follow Lairds advice on all things G. Another good read is Scot Kahn's book, Modern Guitar Rigs.
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Mister Joshua
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Mister Joshua » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:36 am

The GS outputs that use TRS don't require TRS at both ends. It is designed specifically to reduce noise in the signal. It's a bit confusing how they do it but it works. You don't need TRS on the amp end to use balanced cables. And if you are running long cables i'd say it would be worth the investment. Page 20 of the manual has more info. Since i now rack my brain i no longer use special cables but i do remember that there was an improvement when the brain was in the pedal.

Peace,
Joshua
Guitars: ESP LTD EC-1000, ESP LTD MH-307, Epiphone Les Paul, EBMM Axis
Pickups: Dimarzio
Amps: Mesa Boogie Triaxis, 2:90
FX: TC Electronic

Monsta-Tone
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Monsta-Tone » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:50 am

So,
20' cables.
Long enough to possibly need ballanced cables & converters?
Doesn't seem too long to me, kind of the industry standard isn't it?
Elvis said.......
Amp techs do get shocked. :shock:

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Mister Joshua
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Mister Joshua » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:11 am

There is actually a TC Electronic forum where a lot of people talk ad nauseam about this very topic. I would highly recommend you see what they have to see rather than what us 3 or 4 owners say. The general consensus is that more than 3 meters will see an improvement using balanced. There is also a thread explaining how it works in great detail. Just a though but those guys may be better informed than us. Also as someone said there is a white paper out there that does a much better job than the manual in explaining it. Here is that:

http://www.guitaraffair.com/g-system-support.php

Peace,
Joshua
Guitars: ESP LTD EC-1000, ESP LTD MH-307, Epiphone Les Paul, EBMM Axis
Pickups: Dimarzio
Amps: Mesa Boogie Triaxis, 2:90
FX: TC Electronic

joeydego
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Re: G-System?????

Post by joeydego » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:57 am

Monsta-Tone wrote:So,
20' cables.
Long enough to possibly need ballanced cables & converters?
Doesn't seem too long to me, kind of the industry standard isn't it?
1 quality well shielded 20', no. 4 20' cables = 80' of guitar cable, and that's not counting any other cabling going on, you'll easily be over 100' of rf soaking ground loop seeking cable. Why wouldn't you do your best to assure the least noise in your setup? Especially when the cost is minimal.
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Monsta-Tone » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:10 am

:D I don't know why, that's why I'm asking. :D

So, if I understand correctly, I will need to use a ballance to un-ballance converter at the amp end but the G has ballanced outs if I use a TRS cable?
Elvis said.......
Amp techs do get shocked. :shock:

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Mister Joshua
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Mister Joshua » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:13 am

No need for a converter. Just regular TRS to TRS. The extra wire actually terminates at the send and receive ends of the G System. You won't need any special converters or equipment.

Peace,
Joshua
Guitars: ESP LTD EC-1000, ESP LTD MH-307, Epiphone Les Paul, EBMM Axis
Pickups: Dimarzio
Amps: Mesa Boogie Triaxis, 2:90
FX: TC Electronic

Monsta-Tone
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Monsta-Tone » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:18 am

From everything I've read on the White Pages and reviews, I would need to convert the signal from ballanced to unballanced at my amp.

I have a DC-5 and a DC-3.
Both are really great amps, but tend to suffer from ground loop hum when using the 4 cable method and a pedal board.
Plus, the G-Sys will have a 5th cable connected to the Footswitch In jack on my amp.
5 20' cables are bound to make some noise!
Elvis said.......
Amp techs do get shocked. :shock:

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Re: G-System?????

Post by joeydego » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:30 am

Monsta-Tone wrote:From everything I've read on the White Pages and reviews, I would need to convert the signal from ballanced to unballanced at my amp.

I have a DC-5 and a DC-3.
Both are really great amps, but tend to suffer from ground loop hum when using the 4 cable method and a pedal board.
Plus, the G-Sys will have a 5th cable connected to the Footswitch In jack on my amp.
5 20' cables are bound to make some noise!
The ebtech HE 2 is a 2 channel unit that costs about 60 bucks, it'll eliminate hum caused by ground loops as well as automatically convert trs to ts. I have 2 of these and everything coming out of the G is trs, everything going to the amp is ts.
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screamingdaisy
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Re: G-System?????

Post by screamingdaisy » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:11 pm

joeydego wrote:Personally, I use and see a benefit in using trs cables thru ebtechs. Just because you don't have noise in the first 9 venues doesn't mean you shouldn't be protected from noise in the 10th. Nothing more amaturish that steady buzz. For the negligible cost after spending 3 grand on effects and a head, seems to be a no brainer. Read the white paper (Google g system white paper). You can't go wrong if you follow Lairds advice on all things G. Another good read is Scot Kahn's book, Modern Guitar Rigs.
Lairds book is a good starting point, but I felt he got hung up details and took his eye off the big picture.

Long story short, I felt he put in an extraordinary amount of effort and expense to produce a result that was inferior to a using a bunch of short patch cables. Both in terms of the sonics due to introducing more noise and electronics into the signal path and in terms of reliability due to introducing more components into the guitar rig.

But, this is only my opinion. Some people really want the brain on their pedalboard, and for those guys the added stuff is obviously worth it. For me it was easier to rack everything (Korg DTR-1000, Furman power conditioner, G-System and a Maxon OD808) and set it on the amp. I never had any ground loop issues, but I never tried running to a second amp.
Ignore the hype and trust your ears. Play more, buy less = better tone.

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Mister Joshua
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Mister Joshua » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:56 pm

screamingdaisy wrote:
joeydego wrote:Personally, I use and see a benefit in using trs cables thru ebtechs. Just because you don't have noise in the first 9 venues doesn't mean you shouldn't be protected from noise in the 10th. Nothing more amaturish that steady buzz. For the negligible cost after spending 3 grand on effects and a head, seems to be a no brainer. Read the white paper (Google g system white paper). You can't go wrong if you follow Lairds advice on all things G. Another good read is Scot Kahn's book, Modern Guitar Rigs.
Lairds book is a good starting point, but I felt he got hung up details and took his eye off the big picture.

Long story short, I felt he put in an extraordinary amount of effort and expense to produce a result that was inferior to a using a bunch of short patch cables. Both in terms of the sonics due to introducing more noise and electronics into the signal path and in terms of reliability due to introducing more components into the guitar rig.

But, this is only my opinion. Some people really want the brain on their pedalboard, and for those guys the added stuff is obviously worth it. For me it was easier to rack everything (Korg DTR-1000, Furman power conditioner, G-System and a Maxon OD808) and set it on the amp. I never had any ground loop issues, but I never tried running to a second amp.
Absolutely agree. Laird also has a few things in the white pages that border on opinion more than fact. I honestly say to buy the G System, wire it up, and see how much noise there is. If the noise is too much then start spending the cash on cables and stuff. You may find that your setup is absolutely silent with no special stuff. You may also find it is easier to rack the brain than run 80 feet of cable with half of it being special cable.

Peace,
Joshua
Guitars: ESP LTD EC-1000, ESP LTD MH-307, Epiphone Les Paul, EBMM Axis
Pickups: Dimarzio
Amps: Mesa Boogie Triaxis, 2:90
FX: TC Electronic

tonefordays
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Re: G-System?????

Post by tonefordays » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:18 pm

screamingdaisy wrote:TRS/Balanced cables will only produce a result if it's connected into a balanced input/output on both ends. Your amp's inputs/outputs are unbalanced, ...
You are correct. I used TRS cabling to connect my G-Major 2 in between my Triaxis and my 2:90, as the G-Major 2 also has balanced in/out. I ran each side of the 2:90 into a single 12" driver in a 2x12, then spent quite some time trying to figure out why I had no low end. A switch to regular TS cables confirmed it; phase reversal. The balanced aspect of the G-Major 2 does this if you use TRS cables. If you connect another device that uses balanced, the phases end up correct in the end, but neither the Triaxis nor the 2:90 are balanced. If running only a single channel, this would never be noticed, but a stereo setup using TRS where not supported doesn't work.

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Re: G-System?????

Post by joeydego » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:05 pm

I had no noise at all with regular cables. Until I ditched my cheapo 65 dollar furman for a P1800AR. Instant buzz. One HE2 corrected it. Keep in mind, you can hook your stuff up and it'll be dead quiet. Any little change in power or location or moving a piece of gear can cause a ground problem. HE2's, after spending a couple grand on a head and effects to me are cheap enough they're a must have. YMMV.
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Monsta-Tone » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:30 pm

Thanks for all of the info guys!

I tried the TC forum, but that place is dead at times. I have posted questions in the past and not received 1 answer until 2 years later!

I just paid for one that I found on CL here in Hawaii.
Should be here by Wednesday!
I will be keeping the brain in the footswitch. Not sure I want to carry around a rack, amp, external cab, pedalboard, and guitars.
Gotta keep it simple.
If I have hum issues, I will address them after I've tried it for a while. I live on Maui and the power distribution is pretty much the worst I have ever seen! I've been an electrician for over 20 years, I've seen some sh!t power, but this is just the worst!

So...
All cable, hum, ground questions aside....I have some other questions.

Loops?
I am thinking that I would like to use a few dirt pedals and maybe a super high gain distortion pedal, for different tones.
Is there any popping, delay, etc. when using a distortion or overdrive pedal in the loops? These will be going into the front of the amp.

Graphic EQ
The Graphic EQ on my amp is just before the FX loop. I use it for a solo boost.
I do not want to use the attenuation style "Boost" that the G has. Just doesn't sound that great to me.
Will I cause clipping in the input buffers of the G Sys if I use my Graphic EQ as a boost? I generally set the bass sliders in the middle and just boost the mids and treble slightly. Not enough to make a drastic difference, but enough to get a little more sustain and make the notes louder/cut through better.

Expression Pedals
- What are you guys using for an expression pedal? I would like something that works very well and is sturdy, but I also want something that is small.
I bought a Boss expression/volume pedal from AMS and immediately sent it back once I realized it was so freakishly huge!
- How hard is it to program the expression pedal into the G-Sys? Or should I ask how hard it is to calibrate the pedal to the G?

Toggle?
Can the preset buttons on the G be programmed so that they will toggle between the preset that is assigned to the button and the previous preset?
Years ago, I had a Rolls midi pedal. It was super rugged, super cheap, and had almost no functions that I could change.
The thing I liked about it though was the fact that it would automatically toggle between the preset assigned to it and the previous preset. Really cut down on the tap dancing!


You guys have been really great! I feel like I should be buying a round of Newcastle right now for everyone!
Thank you.
Elvis said.......
Amp techs do get shocked. :shock:

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Mister Joshua
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Re: G-System?????

Post by Mister Joshua » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:06 pm

No pops or clicks with the loops, never used the EQ, Ernie Ball volume pedals with y cables, not sure i understand the last one.

Peace,
Joshua
Guitars: ESP LTD EC-1000, ESP LTD MH-307, Epiphone Les Paul, EBMM Axis
Pickups: Dimarzio
Amps: Mesa Boogie Triaxis, 2:90
FX: TC Electronic

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