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elvis

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Saw a band last weekend. The guitar player had a BEAUTIFUL Lone Star head/cab custom rig. Plus a nice floor rig.

He was out of tune, out of key, and didn't play well at all.

If you're going to be that way, play a Marshall. Don't make Mesa look bad.

And give me the amp :wink:
 
Yeah, but did he still have great toanz whilst sucking? :lol:

But, seriously, is it possible to sound great/have great "tone" in such situations where the person can't really play or is out of tune, etc? Or is a major part of great sound actually being able to play tasty stuff? I've never heard a sh^tty player who sounded good, regardless of how good his gear was. I've complimented other guitarists on how good they sound, but each of them actually played well, too - and by "played well" I mean that they sat well in the mix and played for the song, not necessarily because they had massive chops.
 
In my experience tone comes from the player. A piece of equipment may make it easy on you to get your tone, or push it a bit farther into "awesome" due to subtle feel or tonality. But that only serves to make the player relax a bit and play better. It doesn't translate to FOH except in that your performance was maybe a bit better. I find that I automatically sound like me, but it may be more or less difficult to do that on this or that piece of equipment. Makes me work harder if the gain is different or the dynamics are different.

Pick any player with "great tone". They almost never stick to the same equipment over time, but the tone survives.
 
elvis said:
In my experience tone comes from the player. A piece of equipment may make it easy on you to get your tone, or push it a bit farther into "awesome" due to subtle feel or tonality. But that only serves to make the player relax a bit and play better. It doesn't translate to FOH except in that your performance was maybe a bit better. I find that I automatically sound like me, but it may be more or less difficult to do that on this or that piece of equipment. Makes me work harder if the gain is different or the dynamics are different.

Pick any player with "great tone". They almost never stick to the same equipment over time, but the tone survives.
Oh, I know exactly what you mean. My questions were more rhetorical than anything, just taking the piss out of the whole idea that the gear makes the player.
 
elvis said:
In my experience tone comes from the player. A piece of equipment may make it easy on you to get your tone, or push it a bit farther into "awesome" due to subtle feel or tonality. But that only serves to make the player relax a bit and play better. It doesn't translate to FOH except in that your performance was maybe a bit better. I find that I automatically sound like me, but it may be more or less difficult to do that on this or that piece of equipment. Makes me work harder if the gain is different or the dynamics are different.

I didn't really want to get into the amp vs hands tone thing last week because I really hadn't thought about it much, yet suspected hands played a bigger role. But I had an "issue" with my mark at a gig this weekend and benched it for my buddy's egnater rebel ( I usually bring 2 also but not that night, good thing he did). Half way through the set I actually forgot I was on his gear. My drummer , who was outside during the break, didn't know I had switched heads at all nor did most of the crowd with the exception of a friend of mine who plays a plus also. So Tone is more hands heart and soul than gear IMHO
 
After 30 years of hating my tone, I finally found what I was listening for. Once I got a Mesa, my tone improved yet again. While I do believe that tone starts in the fingers, there is something to be said, based on my experience, for having better gear. I have heard fantastic players with crappy tone and vice versa.
 
jnoel64 said:
After 30 years of hating my tone, I finally found what I was listening for. Once I got a Mesa, my tone improved yet again. While I do believe that tone starts in the fingers, there is something to be said, based on my experience, for having better gear.
Of course, that's why we play Mesas! Seriously, that is what the whole thing is in the "tone quest": Finding an amp that delivers the sound you hear in your head. To that extent, though, with any amp I've ever played through, I've more often than not been able to set the amp so that it gets as close as possible to that sound I'm listening for. Some amps fall short and miss the mark completely, but most decent amps can get very close; but there's always just that last little bit that's lacking. That's usually just a matter of how the amp "feels" or responds that's just not quite right. And sometimes the amp's "feel" might be there, but it's just lacking in gain or some part of the harmonic structure. That's why I like my Mini Rec: Because it delivers everything in spades.
jnoel64 said:
I have heard fantastic players with crappy tone and vice versa.
Really? You've heard crappy players that sound good? I know some guys who can play well, but I always shake my head in silence at the crap tone (I think) they have, but I've never, ever come across somebody with terrible time, who hits clunkers, mis-frets notes, and nails one clam each measure - and I've walked away thinking, "Wow, that guy sucks, but his tone was outstanding." So, to me, being able to play well* is a prerequisite for good tone, unless we're talking about some static situation with no musical context (what often passes for a gear "demo" on YouTube, for example) where a guy hits a power chord that sounds good.

*By "play well" I'm not saying that the guy/gal has to be a shredder or have incredible chops; simply having enough control over the instrument to convey something musically meaningful that I actually enjoy listening to what he/she has to "say", if you know what I mean. Somebody who can play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" (the kids's song, not SRV) cleanly and with feeling counts as being able to "play well."

I hope that makes sense. Sorry if I'm rambling.
 
Tone is judged by the ears, not the eyes looking at expensive gear on stage.
Close your eyes... If you still want to stick fingers in your ears, his "toan" stinks.
 
you have to know music and your instrument in order to play what you want. but you also need the right tone to play how you want.
for me, if my rig can't do what I need, my execution will suffer of that.
If my rig sound well to my hears, then I can focus my attention only on what I'm playing because the tone is something like an extension of my hands.
tone and playing are two faces of the same medal.
You have to remember that the first thing people hear is the tone, not the notes. Phisically, if you hear something nice, you're automatically brought to pay attention to that sound. At this point, only your hands have to do the work.
 
elvis said:
Saw a band last weekend. The guitar player had a BEAUTIFUL Lone Star head/cab custom rig. Plus a nice floor rig.

He was out of tune, out of key, and didn't play well at all.

If you're going to be that way, play a LINE6. Don't make Mesa look bad.

And give me the amp :wink:

That's better :lol:

I agree with KiwiJoe about "fantastic players with crappy tone and vice versa". For example, Joe Satriani's Ice 9 solo, the second part, has the most annoying, ear-piercing, harsh crappy tone ever to be conceived. I also can't STAND Santana's tone on Samba Pa Ti, though the music is great. So fantastic player, crappy tone goes. But vice versa? I don't think so. I'd still much rather listen to what I stated then someone with an awesome tone playing out of key, out of time, sloppy runs, crappy phrasing/note selection etc.
 
When someone else is paying for my gear then they can tell me what I should play.
As long as I'm footing the bill, comments regarding my skill level vs gear quality will be met with open hostility.

In other words, mind your own business. :lol:
 
Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, Expert, Guitar god; nothing beats having gear that plays well and sounds great. I've been hampered by subpar equipment in the past and it does nothing beside discourage me from ever picking up the instrument. I think I've improved a lot since getting my Electra Dyne <3
 
I was at a guitar shop with plenty of boutique gear.

Suddenly this customer comes in. He has the look, image, piercing, tattoos maybe eye-liner (lol).

So everyone is a bit awed by his looks.

He comes to the sale associate and asked: "I would like to play x-amp (boutique $3k range amp)."

So the sale associate set him up with cable and guitar. He attempt to play "Ain't Talking About Love". Very poorly executed. Sloppy, sounds like your typical beginner who was taught a new guitar lick from his guitar instructor. The other customers where holding in their laughs.

This guitar poser complains blaming the amp: "I sound like ****!"

Another customer: "That's because you play lke ****!"
Sale associate already took a gulp of his soft drink starts running looking for place to disperse his mouthful of drink 'cause he's about to bust up laugh.
 
I'm an average player at best but I really enjoy playing and love trying different equipment out when I have an opportunity. I see guys that are wayyyyy better than me at the guitar store and I see guys that are beginners too. I was a beginner once and some day I hope to get better than I am now.
I have no desire to laugh at or make fun of someone because they are a beginner looking to purchase a nice piece of equipment. I wouldn't much care for someone mocking me if I tested out a VH4 or Wizard amp and didn't rock the house down. Especially if I had cash in my pocket ready to buy. I'd probably look at that person as a snob or that they're envious that I can buy nice things that they couldn't afford.
I guess the really short version of this would be called "manners".
 
Ryjan, I think you've made some really good points on this topic, and for the vast majority of cases I agree with you. Still, sometimes "Incredibly arrogant" and "inept" come wrapped in a single package in such an obvious way that you can't help but laugh. Manners (and humility) go both ways.
 
elvis said:
Ryjan, I think you've made some really good points on this topic, and for the vast majority of cases I agree with you. Still, sometimes "Incredibly arrogant" and "inept" come wrapped in a single package in such an obvious way that you can't help but laugh. Manners (and humility) go both ways.
Totally.
There are people of lesser skill that have really nice and expensive equipment. Then there are a-holes that try to buy their way to rock star-dom and have an excuse for every failure.
I've played some shows where I have really been off and I'd feel even worse if someone said, "You should give me your Roadster because you really suck." :lol:
Then there's pricks like my old lead guitarist for my band. He was a better player than me but any time he messed up it was because the drummer was out of time, old strings, I distracted him, he was hungry, he wasn't loud enough, etc. He could never just laugh it off. Massive insecurity.
By all means, make fun of those nitwits.
 
RR said:
I was at a guitar shop with plenty of boutique gear.

Suddenly this customer comes in. He has the look, image, piercing, tattoos maybe eye-liner (lol).

So everyone is a bit awed by his looks.


He comes to the sale associate and asked: "I would like to play x-amp (boutique $3k range amp)."

So the sale associate set him up with cable and guitar. He attempt to play "Ain't Talking About Love". Very poorly executed. Sloppy, sounds like your typical beginner who was taught a new guitar lick from his guitar instructor. The other customers where holding in their laughs.

This guitar poser complains blaming the amp: "I sound like ****!"

Another customer: "That's because you play lke ****!"
Sale associate already took a gulp of his soft drink starts running looking for place to disperse his mouthful of drink 'cause he's about to bust up laugh.
The part I bolded - that was the guy's undoing. It's not the bad playing; it's not "the look" - it's the combination of both that project an image. It's the old "talkin' the talk without being able to walk the walk." If he wasn't trying to portray a certain image and had come in and been less than stellar, it probably would have been no big deal. But the image projected a certain level of expectation that was not met, kind of like false advertising.
 
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! That totally screams POSEUR!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ya, really high quality precision gear is designed to be as transparent as possible. The more responsive it is, the more colours us guitarists can pull from it. It's the very thing that is so great about the Electra Dyne. When I first got it, I thought to myself "I am going to gain control of this beast" and I have logged countless hours since then. The 'Dyne was easy to subdue because it doesn't fight back, but it will sit there and tell you when you're sucking!

But ya, a super compressed solid state practice amp will gloss over inaccuracies so sometimes people think too highly of their sloppy playing!

[Edit] about the poseur thing, I prefer to be a 'sleeper' musician. I like to look like an average dude because I don't want to fall into the same trap as this poor schmuck.
 
I do not look like a rockstar, act like a rockstar, I don't have any tattoos or anything that makes it look like I play an instrument. I always thought everyone wanted to be a rockstar and could not fathom other kids desires to be a ballplayer, fireman, or anything other than a rockstar. My mother called me "Joe Hollywood" growing up because I dressed up like Jimi Hendrix and use an old tennis racquet as a guitar. I have played solos on stage with Zakk Wylde before, in my dreams, so I have a pretty big ego in my messed up mind. I have never had any other desire however, to do anything else but play my guitar all day long, so when everyone told me I'd never ever get good, I laughed and kept playing, going to G.I.T. in the early '80'S, doing everything but take a shower with my guitar. I get to the point where I get antsy if I don't get up in front people to "entertain" them, I've never, well once, have had stage fright. I played guitar all day long, literally all day long when I was in my 20's, less so in my 30's and early 40's, but never took more than a week off. Lately my thing is open-mics, and that is the way I stay sharp, plus I get the rockstar treatment when show up for subsequent appearances. My guitar playing is on auto-pilot at this point because I'm back to real serious practice, embracing "songster" tabs to help me refine my technique and skill level and committing myself to being the absolute best I can be. That being said, I buy and sell gear all the time, it helps my foot kick me in the ***! Off to practice, yes!
 
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