Played a Spider Valve JD100 MKII in pawn shop today

These sell for $899 in Guitar Centers. This pawn shop had a "new" one for $685. I'm guessing it was a b-stock or just a nice looking used one advertised as new? No matter really.

The guy that works there is a friendly dude. I go into this shop every few months to see if any deals are lurking. He showed me this Spider Valve that was created with the help of Reinhold Bogner.

It's got 2 12AX7's and 4 6L6GC's in it. I told the guy I wasn't into that kind of thing, but he insisted that I try it - just for fun. So I did.

It was not fun. Perhaps the preamp tubes are just plain lousy? Maybe the output tubes are biased way too cold? Perhaps I'm a tube snob? :lol: I just couldn't enjoy playing this amp at all. I began on the clean setting without effects and tried twang and blues. Had to stop because it was just wasn't doing anything for me.

I'm thinking those preamp tubes are similar to the ones in the Marshall JMP-1 preamp - more of a light show than a tone generator? The Digitech GSP1101 that I had sounded much better than this thing, and the Digitech had absolutely 0 tubes in it.

I did find a good deal on a .357 magnum, however, and snagged it!

interesting anecdote....from a JD100 to a .357 magnum! :lol:

talltxguy said:

I'm thinking those preamp tubes are similar to the ones in the Marshall JMP-1 preamp - more of a light show than a tone generator?

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Those "light show" tubes are the components clipping (ie producing distortion). It's not a hybrid preamp but it's not an all tube one either.
Blackstar amps use solid-state components to boost the signal before it hits the tube, and all clipping is done by the tube. To me, that still feels like a tuber and sounds like one. ENGL GigMaster amps also use that technology.
Just for the record, not trying to start anything here.

As for the amp, I'd have to try it for myself to judge, but I have never been a fan of LINE6's amp offerings. Their POD units are good for recording/silent practice though.

Jackie said:

talltxguy said:

I'm thinking those preamp tubes are similar to the ones in the Marshall JMP-1 preamp - more of a light show than a tone generator?

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Those "light show" tubes are the components clipping (ie producing distortion). It's not a hybrid preamp but it's not an all tube one either.

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Are you sure? I thought the 12AX7s were the power amp input stages and the phase inverter, and the preamp was all-solid-state/digital. I haven't been inside one though so I could be wrong.

Blackstar amps use solid-state components to boost the signal before it hits the tube, and all clipping is done by the tube.

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No it's not. They have a Tube Screamer type clipping diode circuit on one of the IC gain stages before the tube - the one which includes the gain control, just like the TS. (If we're talking about the HT series.) I *have* been inside these and I am definitely not wrong .

Actually the JMP-1 does use the tubes for distortion too - a bit. It also uses diode clipping, but the tubes contribute as well. (One is for the clean channels, one for the overdrive, very like the Mesa V-Twin.)

Tremoverb, I read on the website that it's got 12AX7's in the preamp section. However, it really did not SOUND like it, and it definitely did not FEEL like it. I would never have guessed had I not read it on the website. Maybe the preamp tubes were crappy? Maybe NOS tubes or something close would really help?
The following excerpt is taken from the Line6 website: The Spider Valve design combines 12AX7 preamp tubes with Line 6’s signature modeling front-end, a marriage that allows each part of the sonic equation to deliver what it does best: creamy, cascading distortion and enriched harmonics from the tubes

So far as the JMP-1 discussion goes, let's just say I'm ready for an all-tube JMP-2 version to come out! I wasn't impressed with the JMP-1. Then again, my last preamp was a Mesa Studio Pre, which sets the bar pretty darn high with regard to tube tone & feel.

talltxguy said:

Tremoverb, I read on the website that it's got 12AX7's in the preamp section. However, it really did not SOUND like it, and it definitely did not FEEL like it. I would never have guessed had I not read it on the website. Maybe the preamp tubes were crappy? Maybe NOS tubes or something close would really help?
The following excerpt is taken from the Line6 website: The Spider Valve design combines 12AX7 preamp tubes with Line 6’s signature modeling front-end, a marriage that allows each part of the sonic equation to deliver what it does best: creamy, cascading distortion and enriched harmonics from the tubes

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No, what that says (with a healthy side order of marketing obfuscation) is that it contains *12AX7 preamp tubes*, not that the tubes are *in the preamp* - ie preamp-type tubes, as distinct from power tubes. Almost all amps use preamp tubes in the power amp, for the phase inverter at least and sometimes for a driver stage or a simple gain stage before it. That's my understanding of the Spider Valve as well - in fact Line 6 go on to say that it uses their "signature modeling front-end", ie preamp. If I'm right (there are block diagrams available which seem to show this - eg here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/1483640-post14.html - although I haven't been able to find a full schematic), then it's really no different from running a POD into a tube power amp, as the writer of that post also says. Which would explain the sound and feel too...

If you think about doing it any other way - apart from just sticking the tubes at the front, followed by a digital section, then the power amp - which wouldn't achieve controllability of the tube section for radically different gain and tone models, so it can't be that - they would need analog/digital converters at every stage before and after each tube section, which would be massively complicated and expensive to implement. Not Line 6's style at all.

:lol: They got me, Tremoverb! You're absolutely right. Well, the website says over 1 million sold, so somebody must like them. Oh well, to each his own. I'll stick with preamp tubes - as drivers and phase inverters as well as in the preamp. 8)

these are garbage. period.

/tonesnob

jsabo said:

these are garbage. period.

/tonesnob

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+1

I think the only two products I know of that got the "digital features+tube tone" formula right so far are the TriAxis and the Hughes&Kettner Switchblade.

Marshall seems to be on a roll with the jmd1 series which is a digital preamp fed into el 34 poweramp.

Shoot it with your new .357. :lol:

Geiri said:

Marshall seems to be on a roll with the jmd1 series which is a digital preamp fed into el 34 poweramp.

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These don't sound too bad - a friend of mine has one. On the plus side it's about the easiest and most intuitive digital thing I've ever come across, to dial in sounds and store them, and the effects are simple, sensible and usable. It also does have the 'Marshall sound' - from all the different eras, it's very versatile - but it still doesn't quite have the Marshall *tone*... there's that digital crispiness, what I would call that "walking on crushed glass" effect. If you want an amp that does Marshall sounds from early Clapton through Thin Lizzy through Satriani and beyond in one amp (which he does), it's great. If you want an amp that genuinely sounds exactly like a real tube Marshall, it's not so great.

I mentioned the tonal versatility of my Electra Dyne to another guitarist and he responds "I like tubes better". I said "it is a tube amp, but it has three preamp circuits built into the same box." He's all "OH". Then I showed the 'Dyne to the band and it screwed with their minds in a good way!

This is what all these Line 6 modeling thingamaggigers are doing to guitarists these days. I'm sure the Spider Valve sounds MUCH better than a completely digital amp, but there is no way it can hold up against a high end piece of tube gear. I don't think anyone here would like one.

If I HAD to play it, I would. If I don't HAVE to, no thanks, I'll take my glowing bottles and rock n' roll.

Regarding Marshalls - you know what's ironic? I'd rather take the JMD:1 than one of them MA series. I like Marshall's products but I hate it when they seem to concentrate a little too much of their energy towards the lower/low middle class stuff. Sure it's all tube, but it sounds all crap. At least I'd get more than one useable tone out of the hybrid than one semi-usable tone out of an MA.

Yeah 94Tremo there is right... there's just this... sandpaper like "roughness" with SS tones. I have a couple of patches on my GT-6 for headphone late night rumbling and I tried to dial it out for like an hour probably but it was still there. Even when I ran it through a PA speaker. Tone-wise it was pretty surprisingly great! Even slaved into my JVM and through the 4x12 it was nice! But I couldn't shake that "crispiness" 94Tremoverb mentioned.

Lest we forget, a lot of pros are using digital preamps into tube poweramps. The DigiTech DSP1101+Marshall EL34/Mesa 2:90/Fryette(VHT) 2|90|2 seems a popular combo.

YellowJacket said:

This is what all these Line 6 modeling thingamaggigers are doing to guitarists these days. I'm sure the Spider Valve sounds MUCH better than a completely digital amp, but there is no way it can hold up against a high end piece of tube gear.

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The thing that really gets me is that modeling is all where it's at these days - everyone seems to have forgotten *real* solid state. (Analog, not digital - it's not the same thing at all.)

I would take a proper analog all-solid-state amp over a digital/tube hybrid any day. I just think the digital kills the tone, regardless of going through a tube power section. That 'crispy' sound is in the digital preamp.

Analog solid-state can't sound exactly like tube - but it has *tone*. You can get the sound back by using a tube preamp, if you want. Analog tube/solid-state hybrids can sound very good, too - so much so that certain companies market them as tube, and a lot of people haven't realised that they aren't .

What are some examples of Analog solid state / tube hybrids!?? JCM900?

YellowJacket said:

What are some examples of Analog solid state / tube hybrids!?? JCM900?

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JCM900 - Dual Reverbs particularly, the High-Gain Master Volume models less so, they just use diode clipping and a couple of clean IC gain stages (FX loop and MV switching) and the SL-X models just the gain stages.

Blackstar HT series.

Both the JCM900 DRs and the HTs are full hybrid amps with both tube and solid-state gain stages which contribute to the distortion and tone.

There are quite a lot of other tube amps that use diode clipping as well, although I'm not sure if that quite makes them hybrids. It probably should really since the distortion is at least partly solid state. (So you'd have to include even the Marshall Jubilees in that.)

There are also many that use ICs for the FX loop (often switched out of the signal path when the loop is not in use - although the one on the JCM900s isn't) and reverb, but again they are not normally classed as hybrids.

Great point 94Tremo, I totally forgot about that aspect.

Also, to my ears, a Roland JC-120 is hard to beat as far as clean tones go, and there are definitely no tubes in there. It's just got that "something", you know? :mrgreen:

Time for me to throw my precious ADA MP-1/MP-2/MP-1 Classic/MP-1 3TM in here....
Although I play my Triaxis/Lexicon MPX-G2/50-50 rig most of the time I keep comin back to these ADAs every once in a while for their late 80s tone that´s (imho) still unrivalled...