Rectifier Recording Preamp troubles

[Trypios]

Hello!

I own a Mesa Boogie Rectifier Recording Preamp, which in my opinion I paid more than I should. I say this because the distortion channel is not what I expected, and the clean channel breaks very easily. I don't know though if it really is breakup because it sounds like digital peak distortion, clipping or so. Using my Marshall JCM2000 TSL100 I don't have any distortion using the clean channel but with the mesa, I get a crunchy sound when using gain and volume knobs on more than 20%. I don't know if this is due to the tubes, effect chain, FX loop or what, maybe you can help me.

Let me share my setup, so you can have a better understanding:

[*]IBANEZ RG2020X prestige model (bought new but rewired for better grounding)

[*]TC ELECTRONIC G-SYSTEM (bought new)
http://www.tcelectronic.com/G-System.asp

[*]MESA BOOGIE rectifier recording preamp (bought new)
http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Rectifier_Series/RectoPreAmps/RectoPreAmp.html

[*]MARSHALL EL84 20/20 stereo poweramp (bought new)
http://www.marshallamps.com/product.asp?productCode=EL84-20-20


The effect chain is as follows:

Ibanez RG prestige --> G-System IN --> G-System SEND --> Mesa INPUT --> Mesa SEND --> G-System RETURN --> G-System OUTS [Left&Right] --> Mesa RETURNS [Left&Right] --> Mesa LIVE OUTS [Left&Right] --> Marshall PA INPUTS [Left&Right] --> Marshall PA OUTS [Left&Right] --> 2x Palmer PGA04 speaker simulators

I first thought that the speaker simulators are the ones causing the problem so I used a cabinet:

Ibanez RG prestige --> G-System IN --> G-System SEND --> Mesa INPUT --> Mesa SEND --> G-System RETURN --> G-System OUTS [Left&Right] --> Mesa RETURNS [Left&Right] --> Mesa LIVE OUTS [Left&Right] --> Marshall PA INPUTS [Left&Right] --> Marshall PA OUTS [Left&Right] --> Cabinet 2x12 (Hughes&Kettner Rockdrivers)

same problem

Note that I use the same setup with the TSL100 and everything is great. Also note that the Mesa preamp does not have a serial FX loop. It only goes up to 90%. I don't know if this is causing any problems.

Maybe it's an issue with the poweramp because I use its volume at 70-100% but I think that this gear should not be causing any breakups or distortions. Even so, I tried the following setup, without the poweramp, to be sure:

Ibanez RG prestige --> G-System IN --> G-System SEND --> Mesa INPUT --> Mesa SEND --> G-System RETURN --> G-System OUTS [Left&Right] --> Mesa RETURNS [Left&Right] --> Mesa RECORDING OUTS [Left&Right] --> PA System

same problem

I don't think it's an issue with the preamp tubes cause it's brand new and anyways I tried to swap the tubes with the ones from my TSL100

Maybe it's the G-system, because running only the preamp
Guitar-->Mesa rec outs-->PA system
it's ok, but the G-system is high-tech, also it works fine with head amps

Notes on settings:

* On the Mesa Preamp I experiment with the clean channel keeping the Bass, Mid, Treble and Presence knobs at 50%. So I tweek the gain and master controls of the clean channel and also the Live Output knob. Bright and -3db buttons are off, but I tried the -3db and didn't hear any difference

* On the G-System I use mostly Compressor, Reverb and Delay though concerning my problem I used nothing and I also tried changing the loop headroom.

* On the Palmer I use Volume 80%, Full Range 0-20%, Bass & Treble 50%, HiCut on and Brown/Lite.

* On the Marshall 20/20 I use 70-100% volume.

* On the Guitar I use the bridge pickup ( seymour duncan JB SH-4) and my picking is not hard.

* As for the cables I use monster cables 20cm for patching and 6 meters Guitar --> G-System.

What do you guys think?

 

[Supreeth]

I have a Rectifier recording Preamp and 20/20 and pretty happy with the sound I'm getting. My signal chain for clean tones is direct w/o any effects

Guitar->Recto Preamp In->Recto Preamp Live Out->20/20 Power amp->Mesa Cab.

I can get a pretty good clean tone with this setup without needing any effects like delay/chorus. The effects loop on the Recto preamp is not very good and you're way better off not using it IMHO. Also, the 20/20 does not have a lot of head room and it seems like you might having some power tube distortion going on (especially at 70% - 100% volume) which is most likely the culprit in your case. Is the sound cracking up when the power amp volume is at say 10:30 or 11:00?

 

[CoG]

Hello!

What do you guys think?

Okay-- on my Palmer 80% volume would be very loud and would make my IO device (M-Audio 1814) clip. I have my volume about 5-6.

70-100% volume on a Marshall 20/20 is going to drive the power tubes way over the line. There's no way you'll get a clean tone at that level!! Try the volume at maybe, um, 40 per cent.

The output levels on the Rec Pre are very hot. I never ran the Recording Out or Live Outs higher than about 30 per cent. Louder than that will make most power amps and any I/O device complain.

The Rec Pre can be a little tricky because it has all the complicated parts of a Rectifier (the preamp section) and none of the easy parts. Setting the output knobs at noon doesn't work, and the fx loop, like Supreeth says, is terrible. Ignore the fx loop and just run the live outs into your Gmajor, then run the Gmajor into your I/O or power amp.

What kind of sounds are you going for? EL84 power amps are really good for cleans at moderate volumes and very nice for British classic-rock type sounds... but if you are going for more modern metal tones it just won't work. They haven't got enough bass, lack definition or presence when saturated, and saturate too early. Great leads but you can't get the rhythm sounds. If you are trying to play metal, I suggest returning that new Marshall and getting a different power amp-- any used 50W or 100W power amp will be better, everyone has an opinion on which one.

 

[Trypios]

thank you guys, both of you

I once more tested the recto preamp,
I guess it was somehow better with the poweramp at lower volume (maybe there is not enough headroom.
Still I'm not satisfied with the preamp though. The clean channel now breaks at 55% gain and master. Strange for me cause I'm used to the TSL100 where I could set 90% on both gain and volume of the clean channel and the sound would be sparkly clean. Nevermind.
I lost some money, now I decided to go for the VHT 2902 poweramp for as much headroom as I can get.

 

[CoG]

Yep, that sounds about right with a JB, at least for Brit mode. Clean mode you should be able to go a little further. The Master control really controls "breakup" in channel 1, it really is like a master volume on a proper master volume amp.

The reason your TSL 100 is sparkly clean at 90/90 on its clean channel is because it relies on diode clipping in its gain channels

If I were you man, seriously, I'd wait a week or two before plugging everything together with the new power amp, or maybe *just* try the Rec Pre with the VHT. You are setting yourself up for a lot of "systems integration" hassles. Spend some time learning to dial in the preamp and power amp first...

 

[Trypios]

Hm...hassle indeed

The VHT fat bottom cabinet I ordered is at last in my room.
I gave the Mesa preamp a chance with the 20/20 marshall poweramp and the g-system without the effect loop.
I must say there is a HUGE difference. This is sound man. Still I had to use some compression and reverb to get a round and sweet sound but this is totally different than before. I think the palmer speaker simulator was mainly the problem AND the recording outs of the Mesa. If you ask me, without a poweramp and a cabinet, this thing is crap, better use a digitech metal master for distortion and the guitar straight in a poweramp for clean.
Strange thing for me is the master knob of the clean channel and the output knob. Both of them should be set low for an optimum setting. And the output is set on 5%. It's too low. Good preamp overall though.
I'm off to try the Engl 530 as well, to compare

If someone is using it for recordings and it sounds OK, he must be very skilled.

 

[CoG]

I am pretty sure the Rec Pre was meant more for semi-pro and pro studio use and the outs were set up to be sent direct to a mixing console's analog inputs which can take really hot signals. They started designing the Rec Pre and its signal chain before home digital studios (as opposed to home analog-to-tape) really took off and the home DAW became the standard.

It does take a little work and you really have to know how to dial in a Rectifier specifically. If you can't rely on lots of volume try boosting the front end-- there's lots of posts in the "Modern Amps" section about using boost pedals with Rectos to get better lead tones or better sounds overall at lower volumes.