Mark IV Tubes - A few short questions...

[visualrocker69]

JUST KIDDING!!!
There's a lot of questions
Sorry, but I really need the help and greatly appreciate it!

I have a Mark IV coming soon. Used, but only for less than a year, and 100% mint condition!

The problem is since the previous owner has been using it for about a year, I ever might or might not have to change tubes, depending on how heavily he used it.

So a few questions regarding tubes… starting with some basic ones.

1) How do I know when I need to change the tubes? Any objective indications? I’ve never owned a tube amp before, so it’s not like I can just “hear” that the tubes sound worn out and need replaced…

2) Do you guys generally let your tubes die or replace them, uh, preemptively?

3) Basic question: Can you simply buy compatible tubes from ANY maker and put them into a Mark IV, or are there any adjustments that need to be made?

4) I read on the sticky that using GT tubes with a 4-7 rating will not void warranty. So, it follows that any other non-Mesa tube WILL void warranty? And what exactly is a 4-7 rating anyway?

5) Besides Mesa and Doug’s Tubes, what are some preferred retailers? Sources for NOS would be greatly appreciated to!
(Are Sylvania 6L6’s available anywhere? Or Mullard EL-34 Don’t worry, I won’t tell a soul… :wink: )



And now for some SPECIFIC tube questions…

Due to the board’s feedback on my previous question posts, I’ve resolved to keep the default Mesa tubes.

After some time, however, I’ll want to try different ones, so I might as well start deciding now.

By the way… the Mark IV can ONLY use four 6L6 or two 6L6 & EL-34 (outer) pairs for full functionality, right? I read something about other tubes, but then its limited to Tweed/Class A or something… Are 12AX7 the only preamp tubes it can use? I’ve read something about people using 6V6’s, 12A-something else…12AT7? 12AC7? What’s the deal with that?


6) Anyway, I’m trying to decide between two configurations…
SED 6L6GC/EL34 with Tung Sol 12AX7A’s in the preamp section…
…or simply four GT 6L6-GE with GT12AX7-M’s.

Those are both good, yes? How would the EL-34’s effect my tone, though?
A few of you (Guitarzan, Platypus, etc) swear by Groove Tubes. How would this four 6L6 configuration compare to four SED 6L6GC’s?

Does anyone have any corrections or alternate recommendations regarding those tube groupings I’ve chosen so far?
(Before anyone says JJ’s, I heard that they’re better for brighter/fizzier amps, and tend to suck a lot of the tone from the Mark IV, especially in the preamp section…)

I’m actually not sure about the preamp tubes at all… just picked up on the GT Mullard reissue’s from something boogiebabies said earlier…

Dunno about the Tung-Sol’s 12AX7 if I decide to go with SED 6L6 & El34 though. Is there something better? Boogiebabies says Tung-Sol’s are all marketing hype.

7) I’ve heard that V1 is by far the most important tube as far as determining sound, and the others can be viewed as “support tubes”. Is this the case? If so, would it be sufficient to put a more expensive tube in V1 and leave the rest as more affordable (but still reliable) tubes, or am I misunderstanding things?

And finally, some more technical questions… keep in mind I know NOTHING about tubes, unfortunately.

8 ) I know that Mesa utilizes fixed biasing, so their amps don’t need to be adjusted for different tubes, right?… but I don’t even know what biasing is to begin with!!! Can anyone give me an extremely condensed and un-technical explanation please?

I’m also unsure about what the term “matching” refers to, in the context of tubes.

9) I came across something about different colors on identical Mesa tubes… something about different idle amounts… what’s that all about?



Well that covers almost everything. So here comes the grande finale!
A clump of vague, unsorted questions



10) As far as tubes go, any other favorites?

What do you guys think of Sovtek, Shuguang, Penta Labs, Ruby, Svetlana… etc?

I’ve read Russ’s recommendation for Telefunken, Mullard, RCA, RFT, Mazda gray plates, Amperex, Bugle Boy, Brimar, Tungsram, Tesla…
So many names! Some of these seem like classics, as I’ve seen dougtubes refer to certain tubes they carry being similar to this or that one, but I’ve never actually heard of these out of that context. Any information anyone can give?

By the way… what’s the deal with SED? Dougstubes describes their 6L6GC as “The legendary 6L6 formerly known as Svetlana. Why are they so “legendary”? I see Svetlana tubes being retailed, so what's the connection between the SED and Svetlana?

And at last! Final question!

RR wrote:
Sylvania's 6L6s are the "Holy Grails" of the 6L6s, just like Mullard EL34s are the "Holy Grails" of the EL34s.


What, then, if I may ask, is considered to be the “Holy Grail” of 12AX7/12AC7/12-WHATEVER the best ones for the preamp section are?

Once again, THANKS A LOT, guys!

 

[Random Hero]

I haven't read hardly any of that, but I'll throw in my $0.02 for now, and read it later.

I have =SED= 6L6s in mine, with the preamp as follows - V1 Tung Sol Reissue, V2 JJ High Gain, V3-V5 Chinese 9th Gen - and I love the way it sounds.

By the way, am I right in thinking that you left a message on one of my YouTube clips? If so, the reason I don't have the Steve's Special anymore is because I changed it to the D-Sonic about a year ago. I'd actually like to try the SS with my Mark IV, but I love the D-Sonic so I'm gonna just have to get another JP If that wasn't you, ignore that!

 

[visualrocker69]

Thanks

And yes, that was me indeed. Know any other visualrocker69's? :twisted:

 

[Russ]

1) How do I know when I need to change the tubes? Any objective indications? I’ve never owned a tube amp before, so it’s not like I can just “hear” that the tubes sound worn out and need replaced…

Generally you will find a degradation of your tone over time. Sometimes they just fail. If you are unhappy with your tone it is also a good indicator.

2) Do you guys generally let your tubes die or replace them, uh, preemptively?

It just depends. Obviously when they fail you have to. Sometimes I like a little different flavor so I'll change 'em just for the hell of it.

3) Basic question: Can you simply buy compatible tubes from ANY maker and put them into a Mark IV, or are there any adjustments that need to be made?

If the tubes are compatible no adjustments are necessary. There are no adjustments that can be made unless you modify your amp.

4) I read on the sticky that using GT tubes with a 4-7 rating will not void warranty. So, it follows that any other non-Mesa tube WILL void warranty? And what exactly is a 4-7 rating anyway?

It is actually 4-6. The GT scale is a hardness rating that coincides with the projected performance of the tube. It is derived from how hte tube will bias. Mesa is now supporting GT tubes as replacements that will not void your warranty provided you stick within the 4-6 rating of power tubes.

5) Besides Mesa and Doug’s Tubes, what are some preferred retailers? Sources for NOS would be greatly appreciated to!
(Are Sylvania 6L6’s available anywhere? Or Mullard EL-34 Don’t worry, I won’t tell a soul… :wink: )

You can check out Watford Valves, Eurotubes, Tube Store, Tube World, etc. People have mixed results with their experiences with some vendors. Watford has been around a while. Bob seems to be doing good things at Eurotubes.



And now for some SPECIFIC tube questions…

Due to the board’s feedback on my previous question posts, I’ve resolved to keep the default Mesa tubes.

After some time, however, I’ll want to try different ones, so I might as well start deciding now.

By the way… the Mark IV can ONLY use four 6L6 or two 6L6 & EL-34 (outer) pairs for full functionality, right? I read something about other tubes, but then its limited to Tweed/Class A or something… Are 12AX7 the only preamp tubes it can use? I’ve read something about people using 6V6’s, 12A-something else…12AT7? 12AC7? What’s the deal with that?

You can try a quad of 6V6's also. Ursinus seems to rave about them. If your Mark Ivis newer than mid90's then you will just use 5 12AX7's. Forget about the rest of them for now. Sometimes people swap in different types for less gain. There is a chart at the Tube Store that is helpful for noobs.
http://thetubestore.com/gainfactor.html

6) Anyway, I’m trying to decide between two configurations…
SED 6L6GC/EL34 with Tung Sol 12AX7A’s in the preamp section…
…or simply four GT 6L6-GE with GT12AX7-M’s.

You won't know which is better for you unless you buy them and try them.

Those are both good, yes? How would the EL-34’s effect my tone, though?
A few of you (Guitarzan, Platypus, etc) swear by Groove Tubes. How would this four 6L6 configuration compare to four SED 6L6GC’s?

Yes. EL34's will slightly change your tone and drive characteristics once the power amp kicks in. EL34's tend to give more of that British flavor than the 6L6 that keeps things feeling more American. EL34's tend to crunch up more. GT tubes will give you a warranty because they are screened. I cannot tell you the flavor difference between the 6L6 tubes you are inquiring about though.

Does anyone have any corrections or alternate recommendations regarding those tube groupings I’ve chosen so far?
(Before anyone says JJ’s, I heard that they’re better for brighter/fizzier amps, and tend to suck a lot of the tone from the Mark IV, especially in the preamp section…)

JJ preamp tubes tend to darken things and be gainy at the same time. I like my NOS GE's and RCA's. Old Sylvania's are ok. I don't care for the Mesa offerings. I do like the GT12AX7C or C9 but not as a V1. EH's can be hit and miss. Forget Ei unless you have a good relationship with your vendor because you might have to go through a few in order to get a good one but they are a nice tube once you find one. Many are talking good about the Tung-Sol RI but others claim it is just an overhyped EH. Actual Tesla's are nice if you can find them. Tungsram are nice. Old Mazdas are cool. GT 12ax7M's are pretty nice. Check this page out.

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/12ax7.html

I’m actually not sure about the preamp tubes at all… just picked up on the GT Mullard reissue’s from something boogiebabies said earlier…

Dunno about the Tung-Sol’s 12AX7 if I decide to go with SED 6L6 & El34 though. Is there something better? Boogiebabies says Tung-Sol’s are all marketing hype.

7) I’ve heard that V1 is by far the most important tube as far as determining sound, and the others can be viewed as “support tubes”. Is this the case? If so, would it be sufficient to put a more expensive tube in V1 and leave the rest as more affordable (but still reliable) tubes, or am I misunderstanding things?

Yes. Yes, it is not necessary to load your amp with all high dollar tubes. What is important is quality of the tube itself though. Character of the tone of the tube will vary depending upon its design and materials used to build the tube.


And finally, some more technical questions… keep in mind I know NOTHING about tubes, unfortunately.

8 ) I know that Mesa utilizes fixed biasing, so their amps don’t need to be adjusted for different tubes, right?… but I don’t even know what biasing is to begin with!!! Can anyone give me an extremely condensed and un-technical explanation please?

Right. Biasing in an extremely condensed untechnical nutshell can be seen as the amont of power drawn for operation of the tube.

I’m also unsure about what the term “matching” refers to, in the context of tubes.

9) I came across something about different colors on identical Mesa tubes… something about different idle amounts… what’s that all about?

These colors can be directly corrloated to the headroom you will get. Someone just posted up the colorscale recently again. If you relate these to the GT scale you will have more success in understanding what you are looking at when you buy. The higher the hardness the higher the headroom. The colorscale is a little harder to remember that is why I say learn to relate it to the GT scale.


Well that covers almost everything. So here comes the grande finale!
A clump of vague, unsorted questions



10) As far as tubes go, any other favorites?

What do you guys think of Sovtek, Shuguang, Penta Labs, Ruby, Svetlana… etc?

I’ve read Russ’s recommendation for Telefunken, Mullard, RCA, RFT, Mazda gray plates, Amperex, Bugle Boy, Brimar, Tungsram, Tesla…
So many names! Some of these seem like classics, as I’ve seen dougtubes refer to certain tubes they carry being similar to this or that one, but I’ve never actually heard of these out of that context. Any information anyone can give?

By the way… what’s the deal with SED? Dougstubes describes their 6L6GC as “The legendary 6L6 formerly known as Svetlana. Why are they so “legendary”? I see Svetlana tubes being retailed, so what's the connection between the SED and Svetlana?

And at last! Final question!

RR wrote:
Sylvania's 6L6s are the "Holy Grails" of the 6L6s, just like Mullard EL34s are the "Holy Grails" of the EL34s.


What, then, if I may ask, is considered to be the “Holy Grail” of 12AX7/12AC7/12-WHATEVER the best ones for the preamp section are?

You really need to just experience the sounds of the tubes in question in the amplifier you will run them in. Without physically hearing them you can read people's remarks forver and not really know. Preamp tube changes in tone can be somewhat subtle if comparing 12ax7's. Switching to a different tube type is certainly more noticeable. Power amp tube type changes are more substantial than brand changes also. Tube complement votes for Holy Grail will only be subjective and completely individual based upon what effect is wanted. Some may say 420's are it while others may say 415 or 425. Your preference may not always be what other's find really good for them. Take all suggestions with a grain of salt. Spend more time playing than worrying about juggling tubes. You sound best playing rather than not. Just remember that the amp was designed to sound good and have reliability with Mesa tubes. So irregardless of what you put in there, chances are you will still sound good. Granted some tubes will assist you to find better tone or gain but that will be up to your ears.

BTW, Speaker changes are definitely more pronounced than tube changes.

 

[visualrocker69]

Thanks again!
As for speakers, I'll eventually switch from combo to head. At that point I can look into finding the right speaker. (I don't want to invest in a speaker for a combo I'm not keeping.)

But I know that I'll be trying out a cab with EVM 12L 8)

 

[Shep]

i am a JJ tubes nut.. i also use some older mesa tubes too.. the 420's.. they sound great.. i normally run my tubes untill one dies or i can hear it need replacing.. the best way to tell is when your tone completely sucks..

I like JJ's becasue i get them matched nicely for the mk IV.. making a much sweet guitar tone..

speakers i have a 1/2 back 1x12 EVM 200watt and a 4x12 trad mesa cab's V30's.. these to cab are made for the mark IV... the 1x12 is great when you can't be Fth to carry your 1000 LB 4x12.. and it sounds great too..lower volume i just tilt it back giving mainly tone thats coming from the speakers... and for when it's loud i just lay it normal and it cutts great for a loud band sitution..this little cab can cut a lead level thought the mix easy.. even if the other instuments are a dual recto and orange quady and a ampeg SVT.. really handy..


pre amp tubes 12ax7 are the highs gain.. then it goes down.. at7,au7,and so on.. you can use other tubes if you want less gain .. but i really think thats a waste of time with this amp's..

 

[JOEY B.]

I say, if you are new to tube amps, and don't hear the rice crispies from the preamp tubes or see the orange glow of death from the power tubes, don't sweat the tubes. Learn the amp controls first. Read the users' manual at least 5 times before you hit the standby switch. You'll be glad you did! 8)

 

[visualrocker69]

I say, if you are new to tube amps, and don't hear the rice crispies from the preamp tubes or see the orange glow of death from the power tubes, don't sweat the tubes. Learn the amp controls first. Read the users' manual at least 5 times before you hit the standby switch. You'll be glad you did! 8)

Joey, I've read the manual from front to back at least 5 times before i hit the buy it now button 8)

Thanks for the advice! Seems that I'll be using four 6L6 STR-440's for now! :wink:

 

[JOEY B.]

I say, if you are new to tube amps, and don't hear the rice crispies from the preamp tubes or see the orange glow of death from the power tubes, don't sweat the tubes. Learn the amp controls first. Read the users' manual at least 5 times before you hit the standby switch. You'll be glad you did! 8)

Joey, I've read the manual from front to back at least 5 times before i hit the buy it now button 8)

Thanks for the advice! Seems that I'll be using four 6L6 STR-440's for now! :wink:

There is no shame in using all Boogie branded tubes. I heard my first C+ coliseum amp with ALL Boogie tubes about a week ago. NO complaints about the tone. It would make your head swim, played through a pair of thieles.

 

[ibanez4life SZ!]

I'll be honest with you....in my opinion, throw out all this worry and search for different tube setups, etc. for now. You're giving yourself a headache, and you have still yet to get the amp. Going into all this, even before you have the amp, can cause a world's worth of trouble for you. There are SO MANY options when it comes to tubes that you can drive yourself crazy.

As for general information, by all means!

Mesa amps are fixed bias.....in other words, the amount of voltage running to the tubes is set....all you need to do if get a tube that is set to function at that rating, and you're done.

To function properly, tubes must be rated identically, or very closely, in bias. That is what the color rating in Mesa's case (or numbers with Groove Tubes) is used for.

Hope that helps you a bit. Tubes open a whole new world of questions and knowledge, but the tone in the end is highly rewarding.

Again, in my humble opinion, I would leave future tube combinations out for now. Play the amp, see what you like, what you don't, and when it is time for a tube swap, we can talk :wink:

 

[Random Hero]

Yeah I forgot to add in my first post - I was watching TV and barely concentrating - I wouldn't worry too much about tubes in the first instance. If it's only about a year old, it's gonna have to have taken some really heavy usage for you to definitely need to swap out the tubes already.

I'm with Ibanez4Life SZ, play the amp first, find what you do and don't like, then think about it. I loved mine with the stock Mesa tubes, I just had a preamp tube go microphonic so I decided to look into them and retube the whole preamp. That being said, I did retube the power amp the day I got it.

 

[visualrocker69]

I hear ya. I might be in the same position, though. The previous owner's had it for about a year, so replacing will need to be done one of these months. But I'll probably either stick with Mesa's offerings for now. Or SED's. Maybe even GT if I really feel like it. But I won't worry about tube subtleties, NOS, etc for another year or so