Help with Road King II tone!

[Johnny Ballgame]

All,

Looking for some help with Road King II tone. I play a Les Paul Standard 60's neck with Burstbucker V pickups with Alnico V magnets and primarily use the bridge pickup. The RK goes through a Rectifier 2x12 Cab with Celestion Vintage 30's.

So far:

All of the channels sounded kind of sterile until I put a Behringer SX 3040 Sonic Exciter in the chain. Really brought out the bass, mids, everything... Not sure why the amp isn't set up that way to begin with but that being said.....

Channel 1: LOVE IT on the clean setting with 4 6L6's though I have to use the boost to match levels with the other channels rather than turning up the MASTER and muddying in the tone.

Channel 2: Was looking for an old school Marhsall EVH Brown Sound type tone but no matter what combination of rectification, EQ and mode (clean, brit etc.) it sounded DULL and MUDDY. All bassy like someone has a thick blanket over the speakers. Even the treble sounded dull and lifeless.

Channel 3: I like the MODERN mode with 4 6L6's and DIODE rectification but again the distortion is kind of MUDDY and STATIC sounding with a large SSSSSHHHHH sound when playing power chords is (think the beginning of "Brain Stew" by Green Day). It's kind of like that SHHH sound a TV makes when its not picking up a signal or the test tone used to test surround sound peakers. Seems like all of the lower strings are getting lost in this SSSHHH sound. Playing single notes though it however sounds ok.

Channel 4: Same thing as Channel 3. WHOOOSH Not a very 3-D sounding distortion. No depth.

I am wondering the combination of pickups is just not a good match for the RK or perhaps there are some mods out there which can help? Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

 

[Moby1]

I have an identical set up & at 'gig volumes' don't experience your described problems. What kind of settings u dialling in?

Are you playing at reasonable volumes, tube amps generally need to be cranked.

 

[b0nkersx]

I find that the Modern setting isn't too compatible with a Les Paul unless you tweak it a good bit. Also, I really hate Burstbucker pickups. I think they sound like garbage. My LP is older so it doesn't have them.

For Brit mode, try this:
bypass the loop (this is important, don't leave the loop in and try to compensate with output and channel master settings), EL34s, diode, bold, treble mid bass and gain completely cranked, presence off, volume at 9:00 at least. The closer to 12:00, the better. With a Les Paul, or my Schecter with EMGs, this is one of my favorite sounds in the amplifier.

For channels 3 and 4, the Les Paul and modern mode are not the best mates. It's a pretty bass heavy guitar. I like Channel 3 on Vintage set this way:
loop bypassed, diode, bold, 2 EL34s (add 6L6s to taste if you need more headroom or punch), Presence off, gain 1:00-2:00, bass 11:00, mids cranked, treble 2:00. More volume is better here too. At around 12:00, it's extremely beefy and huge.

I have channel 4 modern set up exclusively for an EMG loaded guitar, so it won't be much help to you.

 

[Johnny Ballgame]

Thanks all. Yeah so far I'm not liking the Burstbuckers too much with the RK CH 3 and 4 MODERN either. I know there are some great tones possible from this amp cause I've heard them and while I don't have it super cranked I'm not sure how much of the whoosing sound will go away if I turn the output up. I'm thinking it's either the pickups or the channel voicing.

I'll try those settings and let you all know. Thx again!

 

[b0nkersx]

Make sure you try with the loop bypassed. I know the sonic exciter makes it sound fuller (I have a BBE sonic maximizer that I used to use with it, I'm guessing they're similar products), but once you bypass the loop and get a good bit of volume juicing, it sounds so much better on its own. I'm keeping it around for vocals and other amps that might benefit from it, but I find I really like the RKII better with the loop bypassed.

Don't give up! The RKII is pretty **** intimidating, but it's time well spent IMO.

If you want to play at low volumes or with the loop active, a good way to dial out that "whoosh" fizzy sound is to turn the channel master up on channels 3 and 4 a ways (around 1-2 oclock). I have found this to be the single best "fizz" eliminator for a recto yet. It makes it really difficult to match your levels at volumes that low, but bedroom levels are hardly a win-win scenario to begin with. I still recommend bypassing the loop and cranking it every chance you have. I also find that bypassing the loop makes it a lot easier to manage channel volumes.

 

[Johnny Ballgame]

Thx! Unfortunately I've got to keep the loop system active because I use a TC Electronic G System in FX Loop 1 and the Behringer Sonic Exciter in FX Loop 2. I have noticed that with the loop system bypassed the overall volume is like 1,000 times louder than it is when the loops are on though. Pretty strange.

I could probably bypass the Loop on Ch 2 since I'd like to use that as more of a Marshall Crunch rhythm channel.....so it should be pretty dry. Doubt I'd use any kind of FX with it.

 

[b0nkersx]

See, I still recommend hitting the "bypass loop/solo/output" just to hear its effect on the tone. I think you'd be pleased. You can't hard bypass the loop in the same way on a per-channel basis. It's easy for me to do because I think effects are gimmicky. I also think it really does have a positive effect on the tone, instead of just normally bypassing the loop.

The reason bypassing the loop makes it louder is because it also bypasses the output control, so the channel master becomes the final volume control (along with the gain knob).

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Well, other ways to reduce noise would be to use a power conditioner and/or voltage regulator, and/or insert a Mesa SPAX7 preamp valve in V1...

 

[Johnny Ballgame]

I guess the question then becomes why is the tone altered when using the FX Loops? Is there some kind of mod which addresses this?

I'm fairly certain that the whoosing is a combination of the channel voicing and the burstbuckers. I've listenened a ton to John Pettrucci, Dave Grohl and others that use this head and their distortion on the high gain channels is crystal clean and not whooshy at all.

 

[b0nkersx]

I guess the question then becomes why is the tone altered when using the FX Loops? Is there some kind of mod which addresses this?

I'm fairly certain that the whoosing is a combination of the channel voicing and the burstbuckers. I've listenened a ton to John Pettrucci, Dave Grohl and others that use this head and their distortion on the high gain channels is crystal clean and not whooshy at all.

Even some of the better effects loops have a tone drain simply because of the amount of extra components they add into the signal path. Many amp effects loops aren't even bypass-able so most people can never experiment with the difference anyway.

The reason I like bypassing it the most is because it bypasses the output control. As it stands normally, you have to tiptoe around the four gain knobs, four channel masters, and the output knob to match your volume levels across the board. A lot of the channels (channel 3 and 4 modern, channel 2 brit) sound WAY better with their channel master turned up, but this makes them a LOT louder than every other channel. It then becomes very difficult to match clean tone volume or even a vintage mode volume. With the output bypassed, you can do everything on a per-channel basis, and it opens everything up at the same time.

Also, about the burstbuckers: I don't like them with any amp I've played them with. I think they sound pretty lame. I would recommend changing them out regardless of which amplifier you end up using. I think my guitar has 490R and 498T, as it's a 1992 model. I've been looking into some DiMarzios and a Duncan JB/Jazz, though.

 

[Johnny Ballgame]

Yeah guess I'm pretty screwed with the bypasss cause the G System but I am thinking more and more about changing out the burstbuckers. Was looking for more of this type tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqJjHSIdU_o&feature=related

So Air Nortons and Air Zone are now officially on my radar...

 

[b0nkersx]

A Quick Rod is a completely different kind of beast. Changing out your pickups won't get you to sound like that. Channels 3 and 4 on an RK are voiced more in the lower mids for a more modern metal kind of tone, as opposed to the high mid-treble bite of a quick rod. The following video is an example of what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7R1GXlN_X8

The guy posted his settings in the video description. You could give those a try.

 

[madryan]

You want less output not more. A tonezone will turn your guitar tone into Muddy crap. I've tried them in 5 or 6 guitars over the years and never found one that worked, especially with a rectifier. Try something like some Dimarzio Bluesbuckers or 36th anniversary PAF's. They're low output and really dynamic pickups. If you want something a little fatter try a Breed or even a breed Neck pickup in the bridge (It's like a fatter PAF)

As far as the RK goes, it's all about preamp tubes. Put a NOS Jan 5751 in V1 and I'm betting you'll love it. The Mesa preamp tubes are absolute crap.

 

[Johnny Ballgame]

Thx. I've actually read on the DiMarzio site and a number of forums that the Steve's Special is a good bridge pickup for the Les Paul because it has scooped mids and since the LP is mahogany it already has plenty of mids already as does the Road King 2 so that may help. Petrucci used that with an Air Norton in his Ibanez signature. Then again I believe that was with his Mark series amps and not the rectifier so not sure how that'd combo would sound...

I really wish I could just bypass the loops altogether on the RK since it seems like doing that and turining it up very loud seem to eliminate all that whooshiness. Unfortunately since I'm using it with the G system, certain effects need to be placed pre-gain and others post gain so I need to wire it up using the 4 wire method which uses the Loop on the RK. Plus I have to keep it near bedroom levels... (

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

You want less output not more. A tonezone will turn your guitar tone into Muddy crap. I've tried them in 5 or 6 guitars over the years and never found one that worked, especially with a rectifier. Try something like some Dimarzio Bluesbuckers or 36th anniversary PAF's. They're low output and really dynamic pickups. If you want something a little fatter try a Breed or even a breed Neck pickup in the bridge (It's like a fatter PAF)

As far as the RK goes, it's all about preamp tubes. Put a NOS Jan 5751 in V1 and I'm betting you'll love it. The Mesa preamp tubes are absolute crap.

Disagree with the Tone Zone comment. It sounds GREAT thru my Roadster halfstack. The trick with the Tone Zone is to have the pickup height setup in the sweet spot. It's one of the most finnicky pickups I've used in that respect. Then the EQ generally is low on the bass and mids, and treble cranked. It's just the way the pickup is EQed, and how it is very sensitive to pickup height...

 

[Johnny Ballgame]

So with a high gain amp like the RK 2 is the consensus that lower output pickups are better than higher output pickups?

Again I play a Les Paul (mahogany body) and while not neceesarily playing Drop D Death Metal or even Deam Theater type stuff, I'd like a more modern type distortion as opposed to a more vintage classic rock type tone from both the bridge and neck pups...

 

[b0nkersx]

So with a high gain amp like the RK 2 is the consensus that lower output pickups are better than higher output pickups?

Again I play a Les Paul (mahogany body) and while not neceesarily playing Drop D Death Metal or even Deam Theater type stuff, I'd like a more modern type distortion as opposed to a more vintage classic rock type tone from both the bridge and neck pups...

It depends. I like grinding, cutting, balls-to-the-walls metal tones. I don't give a **** about "warm" or "boutique" tones. I leave that to the classic rock/blues players. I use EMGs and my LPs pickups are pretty hot too. They sound great. The EMGs have great clarity in particular. Bear in mind that no matter what you do, the LP is always going to be a pretty bass heavy guitar.

 

[siggy14]

Alot of players will user lower output pickups with the rectifiers because they are using an OD pedal to slam the preamp tubes. Since the OD is increasing the level so much you do not need hot pickups, and we all know lower output pickups usually sound warmer.

So with a high gain amp like the RK 2 is the consensus that lower output pickups are better than higher output pickups?

Again I play a Les Paul (mahogany body) and while not neceesarily playing Drop D Death Metal or even Deam Theater type stuff, I'd like a more modern type distortion as opposed to a more vintage classic rock type tone from both the bridge and neck pups...

 

[Johnny Ballgame]

I think Channels 3 and 4 on the RK 2 have plenty of gain without having use and OD pedal in front of them.

So based on the input I've gotten here and elsewhere so far and also on some sound clips on the Dimarzio site and You Tube I'm thinking Air Norton (neck) / D Sonic (bridge). Pretty much the first Petrucci Music Man set up but in a Les Paul. Love his tone and even though I don't plan on playing a lot of Drop D or detuned stuff I'm thinking there's other reasons he used that combo with the Road King....

 

[b0nkersx]

I think Channels 3 and 4 on the RK 2 have plenty of gain without having use and OD pedal in front of them.

So based on the input I've gotten here and elsewhere so far and also on some sound clips on the Dimarzio site and You Tube I'm thinking Air Norton (neck) / D Sonic (bridge). Pretty much the first Petrucci Music Man set up but in a Les Paul. Love his tone and even though I don't plan on playing a lot of Drop D or detuned stuff I'm thinking there's other reasons he used that combo with the Road King....

The point isn't gain. The point is tightness, but if you're not playing a lot of br00talz metal, I wouldn't worry about it.